Works guidelines

I’ve had several questions for a very long time and have never really asked. And editors seem to be in conflict on what actually to do.

  1. How are writers credited? I’ve been told both that rights societies should take precedence over booklets. I’ve been told that booklets should take precedence over rights societies, because they are only about payments and not actual writers sometimes. When I started, I always just used the rights societies. However, at one point, I went to separate out, I believe it was U2 credits, to the separate artists and was told that we use booklets. So, I’ve always used booklets since then. But I see this edit Edit #102107487 - MusicBrainz, so what do most editors want?
  2. Use names as printed in the booklet vs. legal names.
  3. “Administered by” labels. Should they be added or not? And if so, should there be an “administered by” relationship.

One other thing, I don’t really understand how to create polls, so if someone wants to put some of this up to a poll or something, that be cool.

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here are my thoughts on these three

  1. I think the booklet credits should be favored in general, with the caveat that any writers missing should probably be added (for example, booklet credits artists [w] and rights society credits artists [w] & [y])
  2. names as credited always, favoring the booklet (or similar)
  3. I’ve always kinda read this as a label-label relationship, perhaps a subsidiary? I don’t work much with labels, so I could be mistaken…

also, for polls, they’re under the gear and “Build Poll”. the preview is invaluable, you can also edit a poll for like five minutes after posting it, I think? if you wanna give it a shot, that is

one thing, a lot of editors prefer private polls (i.e. you can’t see who voted for what), but by default they’re public

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Yes, I meant to add that of course an artist credited at a later date due to lawsuit or agreement should be added if they weren’t in the booklet at the time. But should they be credited as “additional writer” or just a “writer”. Sometimes re-releases will have them, so that helps clarify.

Re. your No 2: I once started a thread on a similar topic and the consensus in that thread appeared to be to follow the printed credits, so that’s what I’ve been doing. Like you, I have since encountered editors with different preferences though.

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I don’t think I’d add “additional” if the source doesn’t specify so

Thanks. I had searched for a previous discussion and didn’t find it. I’ll read though that.

If I know that it’s an “additional writer” because of an irrelevant forgotten sample used, I would probably use “additional” (or leave it altogether and create a proper “sampled” relationship, if possible),

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It is more interesting to know who created something than who is being paid royalties for it. The relationships are “written” and “composed” not "royalties paid to":grin:

I go by booklets, not payments. Will usually focus on the original release booklet and not the greatest hits reissue. Will aim at the artist name as they use them at the time in the booklet as a legal name often looks odd.

I also see this as artist choice over legal choices. Often those payment things are setup by the legal team.

I have a few releases where the first releases gave the actual writers. Then the reissues changes the credits to the band for payment reasons. These I still try and keep to who actually wrote it, not who is being paid. Annotations also come into play there.

As to a legal argument to add a credit. A good example there would be Dark Side of the Moon and Great Gig in the Sky has now added Clare Torry to the credits for the part she played in the creation of the track.

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I suppose using credits from PROs could vary depending of music type u are editing… In my practice PRO credits in most cases match with other info sources i am referring too, but… that’s just my practice. And i suppose in case of digital releases (when there is no booklet and tags in files are empty) PROs probably are the only legit info at all.

  • In production music case PRO credits in 99% match the info from labels sites. Also in most cases they match tag info stored in downloaded files from digital stores. The unsolved problems for me here are what to do with vocal performers if they are credited as “writers” and how to correctly credit tracks with “public domain” or “traditional” credits.
  • In case of soundtracks (both movies and games) there is a common practice for publishers to assign all credits to the single (main) composer (Hans Zimmer is good example of such), so if you want to get a detailed credits for every track, your only choice is probably only fan sites (whose info you cannot treat as “official” though).
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So, still unsure if a band should be credited over individual writers if it’s presented that way in the booklets. I agree with everything IvanDobsky stated basically and have been editing it that way for years. I guess I was just surprised by drsuande’s comment in the above linked edit “gee and if we go by what ISWC or BMI or ASCAP or whatever says and it just has the individuals…
this is common practice for as long as i have been here and this is the first time someone has a issue with an edit like this”. That is saying the booklets are irrelevant, that PROs take priority. Wanted clarification because it’s obvious to me that it is not “common practice”. Are there many editors who only look at PROs? Yes, but I believe it should be only when the original liner notes or booklets aren’t available, etc. I believe the responses have just reassured what I’ve been doing. I just wish there was something in the guidelines about this. Nobody ever really seems to know what to do with the label side of works. Some works have 20 labels due to all the different sub-labels and administrators, etc. Seems excessive at times. I add them all, but wasn’t sure if I should have been, but doesn’t seem that many really care about that.

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That would certainly help.

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Not true at all.

  1. Good music platforms and good distributors utilize separate “lyricist” and “composer” fields (so Apple Music is not such a good platform, since they combine both into the same field).
  2. Helpful music artists publish credits and musicians. e.g., many JP artists tweet this information or include it in the description of the corresponding YouTube video.
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I think it’s always dangerous to point to one source being more accurate than the other. Comparing sources is always a good thing. If there are differences or discrepancies between sources, one has to try to fish out what’s the more accurate one (if not a combination of two or more sources ends up as being most accurate.)

Rights societies lists those who should get the royalties, which sometimes is accurate, but sometimes it isn’t, as it indeed lists who gets the royalities, rather than who wrote the work. A booklet might as well contain errors, or just give the “band” as writer, without further details.
Errors might creep in everywhere, either deliberate or by accident. In general I would best trust the credits given on a release, when it’s an “original” release (with which I mean: watch out with VA compilations, reissues with non-original artwork, issues with different text/artwork for specific regions, … Although sometimes later reissues & compilations actually contain more accurate credits and well documented side information than the original.)

One sometimes has to judge using “common sense.” I think whenever various sources show discrepancies, it’s up to the one adding the data to make the best judgement, but use the annotation to mention the discrepancies, or known errors in attribution. (Although info from crappy low budget VA compilations probably aren’t worth a specific mention. They seldom check their sources and typos are not uncommon.)
Some sources (online platforms, labels, magazines, …) tend to be more accurate than others. Knowing who to trust, is always helpful.

Obviously, for works that have been published as a score (most often the case with classical), referring to the printed score almost always provides accurate info, unless a work is deliberately attributed to someone else for some dark, occult reason

Regarding written by “Band” credits, I think this should always be read as: “The band on the moment of writing the work”. The exact formation might switch over time. As such, whenever one can reveal the exact band members involved, this should be regarded more accurate than listing just the band name.

A “work” is something that exists on it’s own, apart from the release(s) it appears on. In that sense I wouldn’t tie myself too much too “how it is credited” and just try entering what’s most accurate. This might not always be straight-forward. Especially because writing credits happen to appear differently over different releases, or more detailed info could be revealed from, for instance, interviews or other (proper) documentation that exists.

The as-on-release approach is the strength&weakness of sister site Discogs.
For me, the as-it-actually-is/was approach is the strength of MB.
On MB all releases having the same recording, point to the same recording, having the same credits, and all recordings featuring the same work, point to the same work.That makes MB a source of information Discogs will never be. That difference between the two is what attracts me a lot to this place.

At the other side, in the absence of accurate sources, simply the band name is the safe choice, avoiding guesswork. Guesswork is never good, the annotation can be used to present uncertain information as it is.

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This is totally intentional and should be kept.

Indeed it should be read as the band at the time of the composition.

PRO will split in order to send the royalties to the correct persons.
Once it falls into public domain, they will even change the credits.

But we cannot split, it leads to false assertion that Bob, Jane and Gill wrote the songs, which is not true, we have no official thing telling us that all members wrote the song. It’s the band who is credited, not all members.

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Do we know where these stores get their authorship metadata from? I would personally assume that they also get them from the PROs.

I personally also like using the band for relationships where we don’t really know the specifics.

I agree we should not split based on assumptions that the complete band was involved. Sources should be used to split up.

In pop/rock/etc., writing music is often an organic thing, involving the complete band. If in such cases the band might consistently refers to the writer of the song as “the band”, without ever giving out details about who did what.

But whenever these details can be revealed, I think we should use them.

The info provided by PROs … I think context matters whether we should consider them a proper source for more detailed information. Taking the band intention in account is for sure an important element.
Although it is sometimes hard to determine whether something is intentional, or just happened as it happened without much intention involved.

It’s actually something I struggle with for music I made myself together with band members. Certain works are actually sequenced works I created, which could exist on their own, but as a band, other parts were added, which we worked out organically as a band formation. Recordings of the sequence alone would strictly just need to credit me. Recordings with the band or live could be credited to the band as writer or to the individual members/
There isn’t much intention involved here from our part. I credited the band on the official releases, simply because I didn’t care much more about the written by credits than to mention all works are own compositions, no covers involved.
I entered them here using the band, but not because of intention, but because I considered it necessary to talk with the other band members to how it should be split up. I would prefer entering the details, but I don’t want to make mistakes, especially in missing someone’s contribution.

tl;dr: we should indeed be careful not to make false assertions. More detailed isn’t always more accurate.

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This is never the case, at least for reputable music platforms. Like I said earlier, it depends on the distributor submitting the data to the store, which depends on the label submitting the data to their distributor.

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  1. Good music platforms and good distributors utilize separate “lyricist” and “composer” fields (so Apple Music is not such a good platform, since they combine both into the same field).

I would say this depends upon label/publishers not the platform itself. For example i am using Tidal and albums from one label are filled with metadata, but from other - empty. Also some separate credits to composer/lyricist, but others just treat writers as composers and all.

The most common problem for me in “PRO vs booklet” case is when a booklet states “Main composer - X; additional music by Y …” and PRO credits only show X as writer (example). A question - what to do with this additional composers? Does that mean they so-composed all tracks or just some of them or may be they so-composed a music for a movie/game, which actually is not listed in this certain OST?

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If the booklet gave work by work credits, you would use them, it’s not rare that PRO don’t show everything correctly.

But here they give release-wide Additional Music credit to Mark Cromer.

This could be release-artist arrange relationship, maybe. What does Additional Music mean, exactly, for them…?

I found a similar release and tried this (you can use either compose or arrange, depending of your understanding of what they meant):

Thanks, but generally i dont assign such credits, if i cannot get exact credits for works. This is an area of assumption for me.

What does Additional Music mean, exactly, for them…?
I would understand this as “some tracks were (so-)composed by another composers”. In some cases this additional composers presented in PROs, but in some - not. A few more examples:
Gears of War 3 The Soundtrack
Gears of War 4 The Soundtrack
Gears of War: Judgment The Soundtrack