When to separate artists with join phrase

[RVMWSN]

Before I put in the edits I would like to check if I’m thinking about this correctly.

It’s about this release. You’ll notice it’s been linked to two separate artists: 1. Jeffrey Lewis 2. The Jrams. and they are linked with a ’ & ’ join phrase.

The Jrams itself however does not seem to be a band on its own. As far as I can tell they only exist as Jeffrey Lewis & The Jrams.

So I am wondering if it shouldn’t just be linked to one artist called ‘Jeffrey Lewis & the Jrams’. Similar to how albums of Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds are not linked to two artists with a join phrase, but just to Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds.

[derat]

Using a single entity here makes sense to me, since I also can’t find anything to suggest that the Jrams do anything without Jeffrey Lewis. I’d probably rename the “The Jrams” entity to “Jeffrey Lewis & the Jrams”, update the credits to use only it, and edit its Jeffrey Lewis member-of relationship to have the “eponymous” flag.

[psychoadept]

I wonder if Jeffrey Lewis & The Jrams as well as similar credits (Jeffrey Lewis band, etc) should be split into a separate group artist rather than the individual?

Similar example with Emmylou Harris & The Hot Band

[RVMWSN]

Thanks for the input, Jeffrey Lewis & The Jrams has been fixed.

Just came across a similar case. I feel like Kwashibu Area Band should actually be Pat Thomas & Kwashibu Area Band.

I am wondering though, in what order should I put the edits. Because last time with Jefrrey Lewis & The Jrams I got some failed edits because I presumably did something in a wrong order?

[UltimateRiff]

I will note, this wasn’t entirely fixed, as the release from the OP is credited to:

(just fixed with an edit, but I thought it was a bit funny, lol)

[IvanDobsky]

In the same week we have both sides of this one:

Waylon Jennings & Willie Nelson (as a duo)

An editor recently started to separate out the duo into the individuals. I believe this is a well-established duo and therefore should remain so. Some of his edits have gone through without votes. These were basically removal of the members and links to the various other sites that also have them listed as a duo. Should they remain a duo? Has been a duo on MB since 2003, so over 20 years.I readded the removals, but will gladly revert them if the community thinks they should continue to be separa…

[derat]

My guess is that what happened is:

1. You renamed the The Jrams artist to Jeffrey Lewis & The Jrams in edit #114661391.
2. When you submitted that edit, you also checked the checkbox(es) to rename artist credits, creating edit #114661392 and a bunch of other credit changes like edit #114661392.

Renaming the existing credits resulted in the two-artist “Jeffrey Lewis & The Jrams” credits getting changed to “Jeffrey Lewis & Jeffrey Lewis & The Jrams”, i.e. still the same two artists but with the second one using the “Jeffrey Lewis & The Jrams” name.

It’d probably be better to leave the checkboxes unchecked and just manually edit the releases to only credit the group artist with its updated name. The rename checkboxes work for things like capitalization or spelling changes, but not so much when joining or unjoining artists.

[RVMWSN]

@UltimateRiff

I will note, this wasn’t entirely fixed, as the release from the OP is credited to:

Aah forgot about the release group thank you for fixing it.

@derat

It’d probably be better to leave the checkboxes unchecked and just manually edit the releases to only credit the group artist with its updated name.

I think you’re right, thanks.

@IvanDobsky

In the same week we have both sides of this one:

I do find it somewhat confusing when to have 1 or 2 artist credits. When would artist A & artist B justify a combined artist entry? And when would artist A & the Examples be one artist instead of two separate ones? What are the general principles to follow here and are these described anywhere in the documentation?

[UltimateRiff]

@RVMWSN

@IvanDobsky

In the same week we have both sides of this one:

I do find it somewhat confusing when to have 1 or 2 artist credits. When would artist A & artist B justify a combined artist entry? And when would artist A & the Examples be one artist instead of two separate ones? What are the general principles to follow here and are these described anywhere in the documentation?

I feel like in most cases, it’s a matter of how the artists (and fans of the artists) view the projects, so should probably be considered case by case. (which to be fair probably applies to most artist splits, including renames)

[derat]

I don’t think there are any guidelines for this, and even for well-known artists with backing bands, there are plenty of examples of both approaches:

• Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers
• George Thorogood & the Destroyers
• Bob Marley & The Wailers
• The E Street Band (separate from Bruce Springsteen)
• The Mothers of Invention (separate from Frank Zappa)
• The Revolution (separate from Prince)

Personally, I usually create a single artist if it’s hard to imagine the backing band releasing material or performing without the headliner. Sometimes the same album gets re-released with different credits, though (The Grand Wazoo looks like an example of this), and it can be useful to have two entities in that case.

Collaborations are also fuzzy. I usually credit the artists separately if there are only a few joint works and only add a joint artist if the collaboration feels more long-term (for currently-active artists, this can be signaled by the collaboration having its own website, social media pages, etc.).