I agree that length probably shouldn’t be the only determining factor.
if it was marketed as an EP, Album, Mini-album, whatever, I think we should be able to denote that though.
5 Likes
“Denote”, yes, but I’m against further fragmentation of RG types.
4 Likes
I definitely don’t want to rename the EP RG type, that is my least wanted option
I think it’s fine to have a type that will “only be used in some markets”
i.e: “Mini-Album” shouldn’t beset unless the artist/label/etc actually refers to it as this.
This is a very “Japan-centric” RG type I’m sure…
5 Likes
Voted for “Use EP RG type for mini-album, and rename to EP/Mini-Album” to avoid creating more confusion despite my choice would normally have been “Create Mini-Album RG type” with the current system.
Made this choice as those categories have unclear definitions since they have evolved over time along the formats* but stricto sensu they are all Albums. ALBUM | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary
IMO we should first confirm why we are listing those:
- Archiving: Then each release type should exist under secondary type, definitions should be developped and warnings could be set on time periods
- Splitting releases on artist page: Then it may not needed to refer to those “subjective” wordings. We could rely on content nature and length (ex: Original long = What we call Albums today,…)
To conclude I just link this nice video which resume quickly how we came from Single releases to what we call Albums How a forgotten 1949 Format War shaped the future of records - YouTube
Asterisk (*) EP sounds really Vinyl times as Maxi CDs refers to Compact Disc period despite the both are mixed up now with Digital Media (Single release with different mix versions called EP).
1 Like
ulugabi makes a valid point about these all being “period” specific - “EP” is definitely something I associate with vinyls (and Maxi CD is a very “90’s” thing, no? ´:D´) like "Mini-Album being very “Japan”
But to me that is precisely the reason to create a new type.
But I also toyed with the idea of this perhasp being a secondary type…
5 Likes
Japanese group INUWASI uses EP and mini-album differently – not interchangeable.
*2020-11-30, Aqular, 1st mini-album
*2020-03-16, Thanatos, 2nd mini-album discograpy page
*2021-08-30, chimena, EP tweet
*2022-03-29, 天秤, 3rd mini-album tweet
An EP is just a series of songs, while a mini-album has a concept, as someone said in Japanese article: CDや配信作品で使われる「EP」ってなに？ - 音楽ナタリー.
6 Likes
I think renaming the type “EP/Mini-Album” is a really bad idea
Think about it, it will de facto label every single EP we currently have in the database as *also* being a Mini-Album! And I don’t think that’s correct or advisable
It has also been shown that (some) actually differentiate between EP and Mini-Album type releases.
I feel we with this option we will actually be losing information, just for the sake of making it easy for the cases where it’s confusing and/or unclear what the difference is.
You can easily say that the same holds true for single/standalone, short albums/long EP’s etc.
The thing that the artist page is not really clear is a point, but it shouldn’t be the reason for not adding more release types, instead that’s a different topic. (and something I think that we can’t solve unless we either incorporate different views or individual artist customisation (or both))
.
edit: I also wonder what a pollresult with only one choseable option would look like. Personally I only chose one option (since I agree with that and I find the other options sub-optional to that choice)
But others might do a “i prefer x, but if not then y is better than these other options” type reasoning?
which then will boost the “common denominator” more… well maybe I’m not sure to be honest, which is why I’d be interested in such a poll!
5 Likes
I think creating an additional type would be an even worse idea. “Is this an album or an EP” already causes annoyingly subjective discussions, creating a separate “Mini-Album” type would only make that worse, especially because it suggests an even greater subjectivity (“Is an album with only half an hour of content really an album?”).
Renaming is the only sustainable option.
4 Likes
You don’t really have to worry about guessing as the artists are saying if it’s a mini album, an EP, an album or a single.
3 Likes
The examples shown so far fit more into the album type than EP. They are basically albums that maybe are a bit shorter than usual (for the artist and time where they were released).
As I understand it, it is mostly a marketing thing: there is an album that might not fulfil the expectations of the fans for a “full album”, and the label wants to sell it a bit cheaper, so they call it a “mini-album”.
So for many cases if we don’t have a separate type I would argue for using the “album” type instead of EP. And that means even without this separate type you get the discussion whether to use EP or album nonetheless. You can’t avoid this discussion. When having a separate type there would be a clear choice.
Also you have the same ambiguity with the EP type already anyway. And the usual solution is to use it only for releases that are explicitly marketed as EPs. Same would work for mini-albums as well.
4 Likes
I’ve never heard of mini-album, I got started with music in the vinyl days! where there was:
-
a single released on a 45 with an A & B side. The record company determined the A side and promoted it. Occasionally they got it wrong and B side got more attention
-
an EP, also released on a 45 which had more than two tracks. I found two in my collection, one with 3 and one with 4.
-
an LP, released on a 33rpm. I found many with 10 or less tracks. One had 12 and had notes on the back noting this and as a result encouraging the listener to play it loud! (This is because the 12 tracks had been ‘squeezed’ onto the record and with the result it had less volume)
-
78s.
Interestingly, neither of the EPs said they were EPs and I could find many LPs that did not say they were LPs.
I voted for a separate RG for mini-albums and leave EPs alone.
2 Likes
Yes, it really depends on artist origin/market.
I had never heard of EP myself, even at the time of vinyl, until MusicBrainz and then until recently, in real life, influenced by recent digital EP fashion in new internet artists.
And in some countries, EP means totally something else: 7 inch 45 rpm A/B vinyl singles in Japan (but they now use it for some small digital releases, following the trend).
1 Like
I am beginning to wonder what is the reason and/or need for Release Group Type. It is not the medium or number of tracks. What is it indicating?
1 Like
Well, no denying it’s important to have albums on one side, and singles on the other, right?
Not clear to me anymore,
If there’s no clear definition, then there’s no point.
Both artists and record companies utilize categories that mirror release group primary type. Frankly, to claim that there’s no point seems like admitting zero knowledge of industry practice.
2 Likes
I have read the definitions https://musicbrainz.org/doc/Release_Group/Type
and my observation is that:
-
they are unclear and do not provide the clear criteria to determine what release group type that a release group is.
-
as someone who has lived in the UK and the USA, the descriptions of those countries do not reflect my experience and knowledge of releases there. In my opinion, they need some refinement.
My observation is that It’s hard to have a reasoned discussion about EP vs Mini Album without clear definitions of a Release Group Type.
2 Likes
It was already said earlier that we go by whatever the artist/label calls it.
2 Likes
If that is the criteria, then my one of records - Graham Parker and the Rumour, The Pink Panther ( https://musicbrainz.org/release/4ee99454-b384-4531-82db-cb410aba36f6 ) has the incorrect Release Group Type of EP. This is because there is no mention or description of it as an EP and therefore it is not. The artwork is available at discogs to review.
However:
- It has 4 tracks, (from 2 albums)
- It’s physical medium is a 45 rpm disc.
and to me, it is an EP. I think many would agree with me. The current release group type of EP confirms that. I do not agree with the idea of leaving it to the record company as it doesn’t work.
A single is 1 track. There’s the complexity of a single originally being released on one side of a 7 inch disc with the second track included as the B side, so in that case, the release group and type are both ‘single’. For most people the single is the A side. It’s release digitally, the second track does not exist and its simpler.
An EP is a release with more than 2 tracks, and less than X tracks.
An album has X or more tracks
But what is the value of X? Glancing through my LPs I see they seem to have have 8 or more.
But, what about mini albums? Are they just a new name for EPs that don’t come on a 45 rpm disc?
That’s not really how this works. Besides, I found the artist’s official website to claim that it is an EP:
a hit EP, “The Pink Parker,” released on pink vinyl.
Do you think the artist is mistaken?
4 Likes