I just want to clarify something regarding sort name for Philippine names.
Here in the Philippines, our names are:
Given name: can be one, two, three, or even four
Middle name (mother’s maiden surname): either in full or shortened
Family name (father’s surname): written in full
(Just using the following names as an example.)
Example #1: Elisia Lyrisse Cabais Parmisano
Given name: Elisia Lyrisse
Middle name (mother’s maiden surname): Cabais
Family name (father’s surname): Parmisano
Stage name: Elisia or Chi.
Sort name is?
Cabais Parmisano, Elisia Lyrisse
Parmisano, Elisia Lyrisse Cabais
Example #2: Van Aya Natsumi Bolinao
Given name: Van Aya Natsumi
Middle name (mother’s maiden surname): unknown
Family name (father’s surname): Bolinao
Stage name: Aya Natsumi
Sort name is?
Bolinao, Van Aya natsumi
Bolinao, Aya Natsumi
Natsumi, Aya (even though ‘Natsumi’ is part of her given name?)
Example #3: Sharon Gamboa Cuneta-Pangilinan
Given name: Sharon
Middle name (mother’s maiden surname): Gamboa
Family name (father’s surname): Cuneta
Married name: Cuneta-Pangilinan
Stage name: Sharon Cuneta
Sort name is?
Cuneta-Pangilinan, Sharon Gamboa
Pangilinan, Sharon Cuneta
Example #4: Maria Kristina Cassandra Cuneta Concepcion
Given name: Maria Kristina Cassandra
Middle name (mother’s maiden surname): Cuneta
Family name (father’s surname): Concepcion
Stage name: KC Concepcion
Sort name is?
Cuneta Concepcion, Maria Kristina Cassandra
Concepcion, Maria Kristina Cassandra Cuneta
Concepcion, KC
My questions are:
I am not sure if we have the same definition of “middle name” as per the Sort Name guideline. I want to clarify if the “middle name” in the Sort Name guideline is the “mother’s maiden surname”? In the example given in the guideline for “middle name”, it was a nickname. We don’t include our nicknames in our names, and it’s definitely not our “middle name”. So, I’m confused here.
Some practices are to use the Middle name (mother’s maiden surname) as sorting (not common), especially those who prefer to have their entire name written (for whatever reason). Do we follow the preference of the artist?
In the Philippines, sorting by the given name is far more common than sorting by middle name or surname. Do we stick to surname first, as per the Sort Order guideline? Or, can we follow given name first for the “Filipino” locale?
In case of married artists, in the Philippines, the wife can choose the following names (let’s use Example #3 above).
Option 1: Sharon Cuneta Pangilinan. (Cuneta becomes her married middle name; and Pangilinan is her married surname.) – traditional but declining
Option 2: Sharon Gamboa Cuneta-Pangilinan. (Gamboa remains her middle name; and her married surname is Cuneta-Pangilinan.) – increasing in preference
Option 3: takes on the name of her husband in full, but with “Mrs.” to denote the wife. – rare
So, in the case of Sharon Cuneta she picked Option 2.
Do we then follow the artist’s preference? (The entry for Sharon is currently using “Cuneta-Pangilinan”; just using her as an example here.)
In case there’s a difference in Legal name, Preferred name, and Stage name, which one do we use for the “Sort Name” field?
Thank you for the reply. Yes, the “middle name” in the Philippines is our mother’s family name before she was married. While the “last name” or “family name” is taken from our father’s family name.
Yes, that is correct, the order that we follow is Given, Middle, Family. Outside of filing methods and government, Given, Middle, Family is more popular. We are more of first name basis than family name basis.
I believe the “middle name” is referring to an American/European middle name, which is typically another given name. for example, Michael Jackson’s full name is Michael Joseph Jackson, split into three parts:
Michael: given name (first)
Joseph: given name (middle)
Jackson: family name/surname
and is thus sorted as “Jackson, Michael Joseph”
I’m not at all familiar with what might be standard in the Philippines (or if there’s one or multiple standards), but I’d imagine the sort name should have the family name first
We don’t have a standard, we’re bad at it. For example, in measurement, the law states that all government agencies must use SI or Metric; anyone else can use whatever they want. So, everywhere, it’s either Imperial or SI/Metric.
When it comes to name format and sort names, the Philippine National Police still use the ‘y’, a remnant from Spanish colonial rule. Other government agencies also still use it (although they dropped it for government IDs to conserve space (they add too much information on our IDs)). Again, no standard, sadly.
I’ve been searching, I guess I’ll just quote WIkipedia since they worded it better
Bearing the mother’s maiden surname as the middle name or middle initial is more important to a majority of Filipinos than to use one of the given names as a middle name or middle initial. Filipino culture usually allocates equal value to the lineage from both mother and father except in some prominent families who practice a strictly patriarchal system (usually of Spanish or Chinese heritage).
The above is exactly what’s driving us, the Filipino-middle name and family name are equals.
Government IDs sort by surname / family name first. The reason they can do this is that they do print our “Middle Name” separately, with a proper label that it is a (Filipino)-“Middle name”.
Office practice of sorting, it used to be strictly family name first.
Or, sort by “Filipino-middle name followed by Family name then a comma then Given Name”.
I’ve seen my file sorted by my middle name first often since the 20th century. But back in the 19th century, it was always surname first.
Regular people, sorting is by Given Name / First Name. (We’re a first name-basis culture; calling each other by surname is very, very, formal.)
Hence, I have no idea what to follow in Musicbrainz as far as Filipino names are concerned. And might end up with an unintentional edit war.
Don’t worry too much, MusicBrainz’ ‘sort name’ would rarely be used conversationally in English either!
It seems unlikely that you would sort Filipino artists by given name first (when I worked in the Library we had specific exceptions, and there wasn’t one for the Philippines), but I might be mistaken. If you want to clear it up once and for all you could check your local Library for us, or ask a Librarian! They could answer all your examples for us perfectly, and then we can add it as an exception to the MusicBrainz sort name guidelines.
I couldn’t find any special rules with a Google search, so it might be the same as Western, but I can’t confirm.
By the way, in MusicBrainz we don’t enter ‘extra’ text into the sort name field. We can add aliases to hold full legal names. For instance:
Artist: Elisia Sort name: Elisia
Artist: KC Concepcion Sort name: Concepcion, KC*
You would then add the full legal name into the alias tab - e.g.
Legal name alias: Maria Kristina Cassandra Cuneta Concepcion Legal name alias sort name: Concepcion, Maria Kristina Cassandra Cuneta**
* If either KC or Concepcion were not related to her real names it would just be left as KC Concepcion
**assuming there are no special rules for Filipino sorting
I would have answered the sort name should follow common practice in Philippines. But as you 3xplained later it is not quite clear and consistent. But in general I think it should be done how it would be done in something like an encyclopedia or a library, however that is.
The sort name always belongs to one name field. If the sort name is set e.g. on the artist it should be following the artist name there. A legal name probably is set as an alias and that alias has its own sort name then.
Ahh! A good suggestion. I haven’t visited a library in a while. I’ll see what they follow today
I agree, especially in our culture where we place an equal value in both family names.
That actually reminded me, I’ve even seen this sorting used for those prefer to use “middle Initials” (as we call it).
Example:
Name: Maria Kristina Cassandra C. Concepcion
Sorted as: C. Concepcion, Maria Kristina Cassandra
Another thing I remembered, I think I saw this in a government document (using the previous example):
Sorted as: Concepcion, Maria Kristina Cassandra, C.
Sorted as: Concepcion, Maria Kristina Cassandra, Cuneta
With an extra comma after the given name to make it clear it is a mother’s family name.
Ahh! So, basically it’s just the artist/stage name for the sort name, except for the legal name.
I think that answers my confusion. I just have to check the sorting for legal names (or in cases where the artist use their complete name).
i definitely understand it can get tricky sometimes. in my culture, traditionally we don’t have middle names— we get two given-names, two family names, or both. often easy to reckon with, MB-wise.
but when we americanize our names, sometimes it gets tricky. legally, my grandpa had a given name, a middle name, and a last name, but his “middle name” (along with all of his siblings’) is actually his mother’s maiden name. it’s uncommon and i don’t want to expose my real family tree haha, so i’ll make up a name:
let’s say he’s José Lopez García. he’s american, and legally, Lopez is his middle name. on official american documents he’s “García, José Lopez”. but Lopez is clearly one of his family names. if i had to add him to MB (which, thankfully, i don’t) i’d be unsure whether i should put “Lopez Garcia, José” or not.
that’s just an example to show i know where youre coming from lol. spanish sortname guidelines are, in general, more documented. but i definitely understand your confusion.
