A local bar venue has been sold to new management. Since the new management has changed the name and (more importantly, I think) the musical focus of the venue (they also upgraded the sound system and changed the door security policies), I’m creating a new Place entry.
Unfortunately, there seems to be no appropriate relationship to link the old venue to the new venue. No “converted into” (or similar) Place-Place link.
Any thoughts? Has this sort of relationship type been considered/discussed previously?
I believe in general, if it’s the same place (building, area, or similar), it should be the same MusicBrainz place. the only case I know of where a new place should be created is if a place moves to a different location
If it’s the same exact building then you just change the name to the new name. Don’t add a new place entry. Then you can put the old names as aliases and add the years they started and ended. Also add the current one as an alias, so you can show when the new name started.
Update: This is for places that continuously are open. Not places that close and reopen. See below.
Is it really correct that a new place shouldn’t be created? I know the address/building stays the same but it can become a verrry different venue nonetheless.
The guidelines seem to lean towards creating a new place, but the wording is open to interpretation tbh: “If a place closes, and a new one is opened in the same location, a new place should be created.”
[guideline]
Different name and owner seems to point to a fresh start (closure and opening) rather than a continuation.
Your right. I just went a reread the guidelines and it clearly says if a venue closes and reopens later it’s a new place. I guess I was mainly thinking of arenas, etc.
The main connection is the same address - otherwise, if the venues are entirely different, it doesn’t seem particularly relevant to link them just because they happen to be in the same place?
Yes, something like an arena that changed names can just be renamed in most cases, and the same bar with the same vibe changing hands I’d also possibly consider, but this seems like a clear-cut case for new place, in any case
It depends on what you mean by “link”, doesn’t it?
I think you’re making the point that “link” as in “should be the same MB entity with an alias” wouldn’t be appropriate. I’d agree with that.
I started this thread to suggest a different link, that would keep the old and the new as different entities, but having a Venue-Venue relationship indicating that the new venue replaced the old (or something about having the same address). That is a relationship between two venues, that if not “important” or “significant”, it is at least interesting.
Well, my point was that having the same address is indicated by having the same address But admittedly official addresses can change and some countries don’t do addresses in a western way, so maybe something else would still make sense if people find it interesting.
A “renamed into” could become a problem for those places that just change name due to a sponsor. Hammersmith Odean has been through many names due to sponsors changing and should stay the same Venue due to address never changing.
Not much different to when your local bar changes owner and style of music. Really the “place” is still the same “place” even when the owner changes. In the decades to come someone will want to ask “who played in this place?” and by that time the “new” owners will be long gone…
Assuming that the facility(building/floor) is the same, the current venues’ names are a great help in knowing the size and positioning of venues that do not exist now.
In Japan, while such “renovations” are common in small-scale venues, it is sometimes difficult to track the transition after the fact. Therefore, it would be very nice if MB could link these old and new venues.
(Even if the address is exactly the same, this would not be the case if the building itself had been completely rebuilt, and the link would certainly be less meaningful.)
and then in 2024 the building got taken over by a festival organisation in combination with a youth pub organisation.
they do the same thing in the same spot so it would be nice if there is some way of linking them.
currently with place there is only a parts/part of & a relocated to/from.
what if we added a historical inheritage to/from?
this says more about the building then it says something about the organisation.
(lik the relocated is more for the same organisation moving to a new building, this would be a different organisation moving in an existing building)
