Help checking my Classical entry

#1

I’m not that clear as to how to enter Classical works. Can someone please check this for me and let me know what is wrong \ needs correcting? I’ve only kind of half done this and not sure at all.

Started with a Discogs import, then linked to the versions of these two tracks already listed, then piled in as much as possible via Picard (discID \ AcoustIDs \ etc)

But I am really not sure at all about which artist credit should go where. Especially as the two tracks already here at MB seem to be credited in a different way.

I’ve uploaded scans from my copy of this CD. Cheated slightly in only adding the English pages of the 24 page booklet, but if you want French or German or more photos of men with beards then let me know.

Any help \ comments \ abuse will be much appreciated. :slight_smile:

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#2

Looking at:
Release Information > Title
I love the “.” between the work names. But I think the CSG call for " / " (space/space) between the work names.
https://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Classical/Release/Title

Edit>Tracklist
The Artist that should be showing there for Classical Releases is the Composer.
In this case Birtwistle.
You’ve got that happening for track #2 but not track #1.

Edit>Recordings
Here you have the #1 Recording matching the coverart back of CD tracklist: Harle, Clarvis BBCSO, Davis.

But the #2 Recording is by The Cleveland Orchestra and Christoph Dohnyani (not BBC Symphony Orchestra and Péter Eötvös).

#3

Thank you @mmirG for those notes. I have started by improving the relationships for Panic as I have the exact Proms date for that one now.

Will adjust the other items you point out. and return shortly…

The DOT in the title came from the Discogs import. It looked neat and does exactly match the title. That old “artist intent” excuse? :smiley: A dividing Slash is better than a more natural " and "?

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#4

The Recording of “Earth Dances” by The Cleveland Orchestra and Christoph von Dohnyani is not in the MB db yet.
To enter it use Edit>Recordings and then click the grey “Edit” button and select “Add a new recording”.
And after it is created, navigate to it and change the performers to Cleveleand Orch & C von Dohnyani.

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#5

Excellent. Making sense now too.

Those edits are now in place.

Do I assume I still link to the same “work” for Earth Dances? It was only “written” once.

There is another DOT in the artist on the front of this CD. This time it is to separate the two groups of people \ separate performances. Should I replace that with an & that way keeping the two sets of performers apart.

Had to do some tweaking of the AcoustIDs as I had attached my CD Cleveland version to the BBCSO version.

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#6

Yes to linking to the same Work.

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#7

https://musicbrainz.org/doc/Style/Classical/Release/Artist
Multiple artists
Use a comma to separate names. If the credits contain both writers and performers, begin with the writers. Use a semicolon to separate writers from performers.

I’d not try to separate the performers of the two pieces at the Release Artist level.

(It’s interesting coaching someone else through this - I struggle with it myself sometimes - now I can see that there really is a lot of complexity being dealt with.)

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#8

Trying to get the Release and Release Group artist credit correct. Is this closer? One Writer of both pieces. Commas separate the performers. A slash to separate the two performances? Or an &

Harrison Birtwistle; Cleveland, Dohnányi / Harle, Clarvis, Davis, BBCSO

Harrison Birtwistle; Cleveland, Dohnányi & Harle, Clarvis, Davis, BBCSO

Your tutorial is excellent as I am more used to Rock music. So this is helping me see those differences. I’ve added more of the separate credits in for the tracks now, but can’t see how to add a few items from page 22. Publishers? Not sure where they fit.

Have also corrected the location of the Panic recording. It was just performed first at the Albert Hall then then recorded the next month at Abbey Road.

-=-=-

Now that is interesting - the Title of this disc in back to front. It names Earth Dances before Panic but the tracks are in the other order. Panic comes before Earth Dances.

So the careful separation of the artists is also back to front to the actual track order.

#9

We have now moved out of my area of confidence:

I don’t think I’d try separating the Release performers.
I don’t think I’ve see it done.
So just
Birtwistle: Cleveland Orch, Dohnányi, Harle, Clarvis, Davis, BBCSO

?

Have just found Publisher in “Label” Relationship drop-down box.

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#10

The Ampersand won out in the end, but I can change that if it looks too odd. Just seems sensible to keep the two very separate recordings separated.

The publisher under label says “This relationship type is deprecated and should not be used”. So I didn’t use it.

I now have to disappear and do some work for a couple of hours, but I’ll be back…

Thanks a lot for this coaching. Much appreciated. Certainly helped me get my head around the differences in crediting Classical releases. Should be brave enough to add a few more now.

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#11

2 remarks:
I’m used to have soloists first, then orchestra, then conductor, but it’s a matter of taste I guess (even if it seems to be almost systematically the case).
I use comas to separate all artists, no ampersands or slashes, the style guide is pretty clear on that.
I hope it helps

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#12

These are two totally separate performances on the same disk. No connection between them apart from the composer. The performances are many years apart. No performers in common. That is why I used that ampersand.

Would the following be a more natural fit to cover your two main points. It drops the “no separators” between the two performances, but still makes it clear they are different to those that know as I used the soloist, orchestra, conductor pattern for both sets.

Harrison Birtwistle; Cleveland, Dohnányi, Harle, Clarvis, BBCSO, Davis

#13

In this specific case I’d go for slash (or eventually for ampersand). I wouldn’t know how to interpret the “just commas” version above

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#14

I do agree with this thought due to the nature of the CD holding two totally separate items.

Lets see what other suggestions appear. I’ll happily go with the majority.

Personally I prefer the slash to be in there to make the clear distinction. It then matches the slash used in the title between the two shows.

(That dot was even clearer but clearly very non-standard and bit too far of a stretch from the guidelines)

Have attempted to add a poll… but that has just made the names look messier… (so I stole the spaces out to at least put them back to one line… yeah over doing this now… :crazy_face:)

  1. Option one with a SLASH as a divider to match the disk title
    HarrisonBirtwistle;Cleveland,Dohnányi/Harle,Clarvis,BBCSO,Davis

  2. Option two with an ampersand between them to keep a clear break between the two
    HarrisonBirtwistle;Cleveland,Dohnányi&Harle,Clarvis,BBCSO,Davis

  3. Option three with one big confusing list which doesn’t show separate performances
    HarrisonBirtwistle;Cleveland,Dohnányi,Harle,Clarvis,BBCSO,Davis

0 voters

#15

The “big confusing list” is what the guidelines call for, FWIW. I don’t mind much if people decide this specific case should be treated differently, but in that case it might make sense to have a more general discussion and actually amend the guidelines.

I personally feel the comma list is perfectly fine, since the place to say who performed what is the relationship list, but if people want some more specific release artist, then we can always start a guideline change. It just needs to be clear when to do it one way or the other, so that users don’t get even more confused about how the guideline works.

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#16

That is what I have set it to currently. This thread was just me asking for a tutorial and not a change to any rules. I am just trying to understand the differences from entering rock music type releases.

This is my first classical entry and I was trying to make it as perfect as possible.

I assume in most cases a CD will be full of performances that are more related to each other. So I was just trying to understand how people handled those edge cases around the main guidelines. :slight_smile:

#17

Can someone help check what is going on at works and recording levels. Surely that Recording should have the full list of names and not just Birtwistle?

I ask that as it looks odd on the Works page only seeing his name under artists. Do I assume I should make it more like the other to recordings listed there?

-=–=-

Okay… pretty sure I have now corrected the Earth Dances recording details to better credit the artists and get the dates into place.

Next task - untangle the mess I made of Panic as I linked to the wrong recording there and started breaking the old data… will now get that untangled and repaired.

A whole heap of embarrassing noobie errors are now in the edit queues waiting to be untangled…

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#18

Getting better now…

The correction of the Recording Credits on Earth Dances: https://musicbrainz.org/edit/61387145

Pointing to the CORRECT version of the Panic recording: https://musicbrainz.org/edit/61387359

-=-

Also, when I make a mistake, I like to make sure the repairs leave the mess in a better condition than when I find it.

I accidentally linked to the wrong Panic and edited the wrong recording. In the process of removing those edits I found more details about the release those other recordings were on and think I have now fleshed them out a bit better too.

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#19

One benefit of the Release Artist melange approach is that it is one less step for new editors to learn, or trip over.

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#20

Not quite sure what a melange is. Is that something like a blancmange but made with melons? :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

And Wikipedia is no help as that tells me is is The Spice from Dune… maybe if I take some of that this will all start making more sense? :woozy_face:

Looks like the list of artists will stay with commas as @reosarevok is pointing at those guidelines with his PointyStick™ and I want to keep this all “by the book” hence the reason for the thread.

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