There is an editor who is going through and removing any mentions of orchestra’s etc from Frank Sinatra Era 45s (on many different artists, not just Frank Sinatra). Maybe I should vote no on everything, but I don’t. Maybe I’m wrong. But if a 45 says something like Frank Sinatra with Xavier Cugat and His Orchestra or something similar, I don’t think it should be changed to just Frank Sinatra only because Frank Sinatra is in bold and the rest of it’s not. That’s the whole argument the editor has. That it’s not in bold. I’m sorry, but I see nothing gained by removing the orchestra’s from the releases, track listings and even recordings if they are credited on the release as part of the artist name. I’m only bringing this up because it’s been an ongoing project and they are doing great work, but I feel these are destructive edits as far as artist credits are concerned. I’m not talking about singles that have it just off to the side. The credits literally have it right after the main artist. How is this any different than modern day “featuring” credits?
Here’s one (out of probably 100s that have already gone through) that I commented on
Edit #84939451 - MusicBrainz
That’s really odd, shouldn’t have been applied IMHO.
@ulugabi I don’t understand the argument at all. It was credited literally as on the cover, I don’t get why changing it to just Frank Sinatra is following the cover.
I agree with tigerman325 and outsidecontext. The track artists should be complete, as shown on the label.
On a side note, I think the Release Artist should be ‘Various Artists,’ not every artist listed on all the tracks.
We shouldn’t use VA on releases if they are split. There are only 2 artist, one per side and that is how it’s handled. With a “/” but it should be the artist as credited on the label.
I was thinking of one of the other releases in the series that he linked to.
I can see that one, since it’s a different artist on each track.
@tigerman325
Thanks for rising this here
To provide some more background I’m trying to add all the V-Disc releases (750 for now), initially I was adding everything displayed on the covers but the more I progressed the more I ended up with strange cases to handle (roughly I would say 1 every 20 release).
So from a point (release 428 if I remember well) I stopped adding all the credits to Release fields to favor what is displayed in bold/capitals then add the other parts in relationships or annotations.
Indeed it may look surprising when looking case by case but it makes sense when looking at the all stock.
This being said
- This edit (and the other Frank Sinatra ones)
Personally I don’t have any preference since:
-
The original release displays it this way (with the minor difference of “with” instead of “and”)
-
This recording will (normally) end up being merged with the one from initial release and show the official name “Frank Sinatra and Xavier Cugat and His Orchestra”
-
In both cases we will have the relationship to Xavier Cugat and His Orchestra
-
And from what I was able to see from all the added V-Disc releases it doesn’t really make sense to apply a strict “As on cover” rule for this label as:
- There is no consistency in their spelling, initially everything was in bold then this differentiation appeared and it was managed differently along the time (ex: on classical releases conductor used to be in bold along the Orchestra performing but that’s no more the case on latest cases I saw)
- There are often errors (ex: Face A Release “The Gypsy / What'll I Do” by Sammy Kaye And His Orchestra / Wayne King And His Orchestra - Cover Art - MusicBrainz where the Vocal artist for A2 was set in bold instead of the band that plays on the both tracks or wrong spelling like Release “Solveig’s Song / Overture to “Il signor Bruschino”” by Grieg; The Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra / Gioachino Rossini; Symphony Orchestra, Arturo Toscanini - Cover Art - MusicBrainz)
But if we agree on adding the extra artist I think it’s important to be consistent among releases and avoid useless complexity so Release “Stars in Your Eyes / I Should Care” by Frank Sinatra - Cover Art - MusicBrainz should be credited “Frank Sinatra, vocal with Xavier Cugat and His Orchestra” (not removing “Vocal” but keeping “with Xavier Cugat and His Orchestra”).
Happy to review all the V-Disc Sinatra releases if we confirm the change.
@outsidecontext To precise I edited this Sinatra release as it was pure copy/paste from Discogs (which let imagine it was not reviewed by editor) so updated it as if I was adding a new release. I won’t have the touch extra band if it was only minor fixes to perform. Hope it answers your question.
-
Adding the other V-Disc (and potentially other 78 RPM releases)
If you don’t have any objection I would really prefer to keep this “font rule” for adding massively other releases (and review the first 428) as it helps to have a smooth process (i.e. avoiding human errors by complicating the edits)
It may not be perfect but at least all the info are here (relationships and annotations) and the releases looks consistent between them. Of course it doesn’t prevent from reviewing releases after (like those Sinatra) or while editing (ex: Keeping the part in brackets from track title on Face B as known to be official title which was removed from most modern compilations: Release “Come On With the “Come On” / A Ghost of a Chance” by Cab Calloway and His Orch. - Cover Art - MusicBrainz).I add some examples below from different labels to illustrate.
-
Releases with more than one track per side
Referring to @Beckfield
From what I saw on 78RPM labels this case happen only for V-Disc, there are releases with up to 5 different artists credits and often 3 or 4 (ex below with other V-Disc)
I agree with this and will perform from now on.
Only exception I see it s when there is an introduction which sometimes are not even mentioned on label Release “Stardust / St. Louis Blues March” by Captain Glenn Miller and the Army Air Forces Training Command Orchestra / 418th AAFTC Band under the direction of Captain Glenn Miller - MusicBrainz
Examples:
OKeh: Face A Vocal Chorus and Face B extra artist + instrument for a member of the orchestra Release “Come On With the “Come On” / A Ghost of a Chance” by Cab Calloway and His Orch. - Cover Art - MusicBrainz
V-Disc:
- Extra artist + instrument on Face A Release “Oh, Lady Be Good / If You Can’t Smile and Say Yes, Please Don’t Cry and Say No / A Pile O’ Cole” by Yank Lawson and His Orchestra / The King Cole Trio - Cover Art - MusicBrainz
- Extra infos (in same font) but not referring to any artist Release “Stop That Dancin’ Up There / Put a Nickel in the Slot / Hoe Downs” by Harry “The Hipster” Gibson / The Cactus Cowboys - Cover Art - MusicBrainz
- Joint word but not referring to any artist Release “Cocktails for Two / Liza / Sweet Lorraine / Hallelujah” by Art Tatum / Teddy Wilson - Cover Art - MusicBrainz
- Long ETI not in bold referring to a movie on Face B Release “Over the Rainbow / I May Be Wrong but I Think You’re Wonderful / Let the Rest of the World Go By / Dear Little Boy of Mine / A Little Bit of Heaven” by Judy Garland / Dick Haymes - Cover Art - MusicBrainz
- Extra parts of title before and after name in different fonts on face B Release “Warsaw Concerto / Themes From the Movie “For Whom the Bell Tolls”” by Andre Kostelanetz and His Orchestra / Victor Young and His Orchestra - Cover Art - MusicBrainz
- Recorded place written in same font as extra artist on Face A Release “There Will Never Be Another You / I Want a Little Girl” by Evelyn Knight / Henry Wells, Trummy Young and the Guys From V‐Discs - Cover Art - MusicBrainz
- Joint sentence with a long list of extra artist Release “It’s Easy to Remember / When the Circus Comes to New York” by Marie Greene and Joe Dosh / Dick Haymes and Helen Forrest - Cover Art - MusicBrainz
- Regarding 3. Release “O Little Town of Bethlehem / Deck the Halls / God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen / A Christmas message from Brig Gen Joseph W. Byron, director of special services division, ASF / Hark! The Herald Angels Sing / Oh, Come, All Ye Faithful” by Dick Haymes and the Travis Johnson Singers with Jesse Crawford at the organ / Brig Gen Joseph W. Byron / The Ben Yost Choir, Dick Leibert at the organ / Eileen Farrell, Jan Peerce, the Ben Yost Choir and AAFTC Band - Cover Art - MusicBrainz or Release “It Might as Well Be Spring / Wait and See / Chickery Chick / Some Sunday Morning” by Margaret Whiting / Johnny Johnston / Evelyn Knight / Dick Haymes and Helen Forrest - Cover Art - MusicBrainz
Swing:
- All artists credited in different font Release “Farewell Blues / What’ ll I Do” by Benny Carter and His Orchestra / Fletcher Allen and His Orchestra - Cover Art - MusicBrainz
- Artists in capitals but joint phrases and instruments in different font Release “Pennies From Heaven / Tiger Rag” by Andre Ekyan acc. Django Reinhardt - Cover Art - MusicBrainz
- Main artist in bigger font + capitals and joint sentence with other artists and instruments in smaller font Release “Saint‐Louis Blues / Bouncin’ Around” by Django Reinhardt - MusicBrainz
Decca:
- Joint sentence after a “,vocal” following main artist in capital Bing Crosby With George Stoll And His Orchestra – I Love You Truly / Just A Wearyin' For You (Shellac) - Discogs
But the Brunswick release credit without the name of extra artists Bing Crosby – I Love You Truly / Just A-Wearyin' For You (Shellac) - Discogs
- Extra artist in smaller fonts and not in capitals, vocal on the side of the label Bing Crosby With Georgie Stoll And His Orchestra – I Love You Truly / Just A-Wearyin' For You (Shellac) - Discogs
Variety:
- Main performer in capitals then in normal font the full name of the band + conductor in brackets Roy Eldridge And His Orchestra – Jumbo The Elephant / Baby What's The Matter With You (1952, Shellac) - Discogs
- Joint sentence in smaller font or not in capitals Mills' Blue Rhythm Band Under Direction Of Lucky Millinder – Blue Rhythm Fantasy / Jungle Madness (1937, Shellac) - Discogs
- Joint sentence not referring to any artist My Girl / I Can't Give You Anything But Love | Discogs
Vocalion:
- Vocal Chorus not in bold Alabama Washboard Stompers – Corrine Corrina / Porter's Love Song (1930, Shellac) - Discogs
- ETI in different font Henry "Red" Allen And His Orchestra – He Ain't Got Rhythm / This Year's Kisses (Shellac) - Discogs
- Extra info on the side of the label The Light Crust Doughboys – My Buddy / I Have Found A Honey (Shellac) - Discogs
- Extra title part in brackets not appearing on most later compilations releases Cab Calloway And His Orchestra – The Jumpin' Jive / Trylon Swing (1939, Shellac) - Discogs
Bluebird:
- Extra info not referring to any artist Allen Brothers – I'm Always Whistling The Blues / Tiple Blues (1933, Shellac) - Discogs
Melotone:
- ETI in different font Gene Kardos And His Orchestra – The One I Love / Bei Mir Bist Du Schon (1938, Shellac) - Discogs
- Long ETI in different font Gene Autry – At The Old Barn Dance / When It's Springtime In The Rockies (Shellac) - Discogs
Columbia:
- Same case as in 1. with the “Vocal” between Artist name and joint sentence Release “Stars in Your Eyes / I Should Care” by Frank Sinatra - Cover Art - MusicBrainz