When it comes to saying which songs sampled which other songs, is there / should there be a way to specify which actual part they’re sampling?
For example, I’ve added a relationship to say that Theme From S‐Express samples Stacey’s Dream (a cappella). Is there or should there be a way to specify that it’s the “Overdrive” sample in particular? While full lyrics can’t be specified due to copyright reasons, I’m guessing a short snippet like that might be OK?
Another neat thing would be to specify the starting point in minutes and seconds of the sample, in both the sampled song and the sampling one. The website https://www.whosampled.com does this, for example, which also helps to identify the sample in question. With sample-heavy songs like Theme From S‐Express, Beat Dis, Pump Up the Volume, and so on, I think it would be useful to have some extra information to help people see at a glance which sample is from which other recording.
A lot of samples are from films, but I’m guessing those are beyond the scope of MusicBrainz to note.
Doing some necromancing here to rekindle this topic. This is because I have been adding some sample relationships recently and am searching for the best way to handle this. Basically I am struggling with two issues:
as ZoeB remarked in the OP, it would be nice to somehow denote what part was sampled. Ideally, this would involve start and end point in the source and target recording and a short description of the sample “(e.g. Let’s Rock the House, Let’s Jack the House)”.
We need to think about writing credits. For example, many early 90ies house producers sampled lyrics from their record collection, but failed to credit the original writers. So now we find Moby credited as a lyricist for “I’m a voodoo chile”. Sorry folks, I am reasonably confident that was Jimi Hendrix. There are many many examples just like that. Hunting down all the original samples is on my to-do list.
I agree, this would be quite nice! I’d vote for that ticket~ until we get that feature, that information could be put in the annotation for the recording that contains the sample.
I’m sure you know that you can also specify what instrument/vocal was sampled too, just bringing it up for those who don’t~
in general, I don’t personally worry that much about writing credits, I focus on the sequence of works. for example, the Moby song Voodoo Chile you mention, I would relate that to the Jimi Hendrix song that was sampled, especially if the sample is prominent, or the only lyrics in the later track.
I’ve used the “Is based on” relationship for a couple works from serial one-hit wonder Neil Cicierega, namely Bustin and Wow Wow, (they’re probably more remixes, but I digress). in those tracks (and many others), he chopped up the vocals from Ghostbusters and Wild Wild West to make something new. it’s definitely Ray Parker Jr. and Will Smith performing the vocals (through a sampler), but the lyrics are definitely not what they originally sang.
granted, these are pretty extreme examples…
also in theory, if we’ve got the works related to each other, we could likely infer writing credits from that in the future.
edit: on a related note, I’m currently drafting up some remix guidelines, in which I’m including samples and mashups. I’ll likely make a new topic for it once I’ve got more than just a basic outline tho~
I can’t vouch for how complete or accurate it is, but it is a start for many tracks.
I am also playing Moby’s Voodoo Child via YouTube and can’t find any of the Hendrix track in it. I can hear a DJ saying “Called Voodoo Child”, but that doesn’t sound like Jimi.
I have left annotation on the works that made egregious use of another composition by sampling the main hook without properly crediting the original source. Since samples are recording-recording relationships, that seemed to be the only way. Using the “is based on” relationship, like you did, may indeed be warranted.
Jeps, tried that first. Alas, the sample is not listed there. Great resource though!
Yeah, I am beginning to suspect I picked a bad example. How embarrassing
Still, that shouldn’t detract from the main point: many “songs” exist where the lyrics consist of nothing but samples from the golden oldies. I’d like to know how to handle the writing credits for those compositions. For example, when I have traced down the sources for all of the vocal samples, do I get to change the role of the remaining “writers” to “composers”? I think I do.
Agree, I think this is a bad one that just shows up bad data in MB. As I noted on the above edit, the original 12" has R.Hall listed as Writer and Arranger. Someone has mistakenly translated that along the way into Composer and Lyrics.
I don’t think a “vocal sample” should be a Lyric credit. It is a sample, not a lyric. Maybe I am weird, but I see a sample as just another instrument. It is is a bit of musical noise he is using to make a new piece.
Like you, I am weird in believing that same thing. Sadly, we are the minority. Last time I asked, the community consensus was that if it can be sung along to, it is a song. In MB parlance, that means it has lyrics.
Do not resist, you will be assimilated
ETA: and to demonstrate that this not a totally invalid viewpoint, consider Black box, who were sued for sampling Loleatta Holloway’s “Love Sensation” and who re-recorded the song with the same lyrics sung by a different artist.
That is probably why it is safer to stick with the “Writer” credit to cover words and music. Especially as he uses that himself on the 12" credits.
I guess he chose the words we hear. And then picked an unknown person to sing those words. Even if that person didn’t know they were in a Moby song when saying those words.
It is not too far of a jump from there to say he “wrote” the lyrics, and that unknown person is the vocalist. If the song takes ten different samples of ten different people, is that ten different vocalists? I can see that logic…
I know I have filled annotations with these kinds of details before.
I must admit, for my edits I have defined some standards for songs, possibly not matching the consensus you mentioned. (… although I can’t think of any topic where a consensus was reached )
I only choose Song for works with substantial lyrics. A line sampled from another song, would not make it a song. And no song selected doesn’t define it as instrumental. Maybe I would not select “no lyrics” either. Both is optional…
You know what this means, don’t you? Now we have to establish what qualifies as “substantial lyrics”. Will a sample of Jesse Jackson addressing the Democratic convention suffice? Or the countdown sequence of the Apollo 13 launch? If only you had complied with community consensus, we wouldn’t need to have this discussion.
Seriously, I think it is inevitable that the members of the colourful population of MB editors will all wield slightly different criteria for deciding what qualifies as a song. I try to conform somewhat to the previous decisions of fellow editors and ask for feedback on the forum but in the end it has to come down to our common sense.
Haha, me too. No luck so far. Hard to find it this way, I fear. The sources of most samples I run into accidentally, listening to disco classics and such.
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