Creating Series for Editions in a particular language

I came across this Villheks (Series) – BookBrainz which was created for “Norwegian editions of this series”.

I just created this Series for the Works: Vildheks (Series) – BookBrainz

Are we going to have Series for Works and Series for Editions?

I don’t think that this is the way we should go.
We will be able to find the editions of all languages via the “work series” page.
Of course there are cases where we need a seperate “work” series for another language when the numbering is different.
Imo we should use the “edition series” for publisher related series, eg. paperback series and keep all series that are based on the content in the “work series” (as always there will be borderline cases).
But maybe @CatQuest can explain her idea when she created this edition series.

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Thanks @indy133. I have given some more thought to this and it seems to me a duplication that is unnecessary as all the information is available on the Work Series.

You also make a good point where a language split might be necessary, one example that springs to mind is The Three Investigators The Three Investigators (Series) – BookBrainz and Die drei ???Die drei ??? (Series) – BookBrainz. The latter includes the original series but the numbering is quite different, plus the series was continued in German.

As you say @CatQuest might have a good reason. Admittedly, at the time the Series was relatively new and the usage may not have been fully understood.

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ok first: This was a really old series which I am concurrently in the process of fixing: re-borrowing these books from the library to do it properly this time.

Please don’t do things like Vildheks (Series) – BookBrainz *yet* (actually don’t do anything with Vildheks just yet, more cooks means more mess :sweat_smile:)
Anyway combining danish original and the two norwegian language translations into one series is kinda messy imho.

second: I have some ideas about series re when to use works and when to use editions, I’m still working on that but in general I’d say use works for “this is intended (by the author) to be in a series(same universe?)” and use editions for when they are “published as a series” (since one edition can be in a series while another edition of the same work may not be)

It’s true that this Villheks series is an edition series Villheks (Series) – BookBrainz - that is probably wrong! Right now I’m using it as a tool to get both the bokmål and nynorsk editions in order and logical before I remove those from the series and repurpose it as a work series instead!
As you previously guessed, it was indeed back when things wheren’t thought out yet, early instalment weirdness :​D

third: ehm… my gender is non-binary and my pronouns are they/them (Norwegian: hen) .__.:droplet:
thx

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My understanding is that once a submission on a crowd sourced database is made then it is fair game for other users to make changes as long as they are valid and conform to guidelines. You made the original submissions in April 2018 and created the Edition Series in September 2021. Does BB have a moratorium on editing other user’s submissions?

I can assure you that the Vildheks Series has been correctly structured and I took the trouble to add the author to the various Norwegian Works that you created as there was no relationship to Lene Kaaberbøl and I also corrected the series name on the Danish Works which you had incorrectly titled with the Norwegian series name Villheks. Sometimes a fresh pair of eyes can be of assistance in identifying errors.

Having a Series for Norwegian editions seems to me as superfluous as the same information is listed with the Work Series (when it has been correctly structured). What you did also strikes me as manipulating the database to suit a personal preference as there was no discussion around the subject. Maybe it is the way this site operates.

Ooh, I can already see this not going well!

I don’t think CatQuest is saying this isn’t the case, or that the edition group is right (they say they will make changes later), just that they are working on it and if you could please leave it for now rather than multiple people cross-editing at once. I am sure they are happy for discussion to be had :smiley_cat:

Anyway, be frends, you both do great work :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

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Maybe I have misinterpreted hen’s comment as I thought I was being told not to interfere. I have encountered people on other sites that have the opinion their submissions are sacrosanct which IMO seems misguided.

I’m not a clairvoyant. I encountered a book series last night and I just created a Work Series in the usual way. When I had completed the task I found a Series had been created for the Norwegian Editions only by chance. It seemed a duplication of the Work Series, so I thought the topic should be discussed in the Forum.

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Certainly, I don’t think there’s any implication that you have done something wrong!

“To the forums!” is always the correct battlecry imo :muscle:

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What a coincidence I’m just about to do my weight training. With any luck my arms should look like that at the conclusion.

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I see you have made a number of changes and I have a problem with one of your submission notes:

“also remove a collaboration relationship (this should be between groups and authors, not an author on another author.”

The relationship role for collaboration between individual authors has been extensively used in the database by me and other users.

If you feel this is wrong then bring this matter to the Forum. These sort of decisions should not be made unilaterally.

I also have a problem with this submission note:

“reverting for now. (this should be done with a different relationship or not at all (if a different relationship it should be “provided story for”)”

Lene Kaaberbøl remains the author regardless of what language her books (or anything else for that matter) are translated into.

The standard process on BB has been to use the author relationship in this way. If you want to depart from the norm, then it should be a matter that is discussed in the Forum.

And your third comment:

“repurposing this to be a work of the original series of books. Danish works should belong to their own series. other language books possibly their own series also.”

Why exactly should the original Danish Works and the Norwegian translation Works be treated as separate Series? It hasn’t been done elsewhere. Again this type of decision making needs to be discussed in the Forum.

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In a practical manner this makes sense to me? Like, if I’m collecting ‘the Lord of the Rings’ series I would probably just be talking about books in my language? (edit: or even a ‘series’ from a specific publisher)

And series would be very long and possibly quite confusing if we mixed them?

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I don’t agree with your reasoning as it seems to me you want to create a separate Norwegian database which seems at odds with everything else.

However, I’m only one voice on this site. It would be helpful to get more opinions on this subject before the database is structured that way.

Seperate database? Just a different series.

It seems to me that both types of series could co-exist in any case, at the edition level and at the work (or whatever) level :thinking:

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I don’t know if you realize but I created a Series for Vildhek which is the original Danish name given to these books. The books have been translated into various languages and I added aliases for the English and Norwegian names of the series.

@CatQuest removed all of the Norwegian Works from the Vildheks Series and in addition hen has removed Lene Kaaberbøl (Author) – BookBrainz as the author relationship from all of the Norwegian Works so they are no longer listed there as well.

This was a submission note left on the Vildheks Series:

“repurposing this to be a work of the original series of books. Danish works should belong to their own series. other language books possibly their own series also.”

Maybe, but that is not the method that @indy133 and I have been using. It is all very well to want to make changes but I think it would be a courtesy to post a topic in the Forum to canvass opinion.

The end result is someone has modified the database to suit their own preferences. If everyone makes the same decision then the database becomes fractured.

BB has a collection feature where users can create whatever they want and it has no impact on other users.

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It should all be discussed and guidelines should be agreed upon, 100%, but no need to assume that someone is subverting that.

If (?) this is the first time this has been brought up in the forums then you have been editing in different directions for a long time now. You could call edits both ways ‘modifications to suit preferences’.

Regardless, hopefully you can settle upon a guideline. Imo I don’t see why we shouldn’t be able to facilitate both broad and narrow series.

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I concede that it might be a case of monkey see, monkey do in my situation. When I came back to BB I looked at what indy was doing with the Series and followed his lead as it seemed very logical. To his credit he has a few runs on the board as well.

I can’t find any discussion in the Forum on the correct usage of Series and I can’t find any documentation that outlines how they should be used.

Regardless, I don’t see any point in having a Series for each language. It simply fractures the database. I don’t know how many language translations there are of Agatha Christie works, but I’m guessing it is a lot. That could mean a Hercule Poirot or Miss Marple Series for every language.

Maybe that is the direction people want to go, personally I think it is unwieldy.

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I just Googled that question I posed on Agatha Christie translations and it is 103 different languages.

As I typed that I thought why am I even bothering with this crap? I have a busy life. Good luck to you all.

I don’t think it’s crap, it’s good to discuss it :heart:

You early editors have the advantage of being able to steer the ship - and the disadvantage of having to steer the ship :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

103 different languages in a single series seems unwieldy to me too. I know what you mean, but hopefully you can see where I’m coming from as well?

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Disclaimer: I have not added any series on BB yet, but a lot of series on MB (for audiobooks) which would also qualify for inclusion on BB.

I understand that both @Deleted_Editor_2265540 and @indy133 came from Bookogs where it has also been the standard not to add separate works for translations into different languages. In the mean time you’ve already been convinced of the disadvantages of this approach and why BB uses separate works for translations. So I can totally understand why it was the most obvious way for you to only create a single series for all languages, especially in the absence of any guidelines for series (even MB has none except for work catalogues).

But please let me outline a few reasons why I’ve been creating a separate (work) series per language so far. A few of them have already been touched, but I will also list them for completeness.

Different translations of a series of works can…

  • have a different order
  • be incomplete
    • some works have not been translated
    • only few works (or even a single work) have been translated and published, but as standalone book(s) instead of a branded series
  • contain additional works
    • subseries and companion works might have been published as regular volumes
    • other (often less famous) works of the author have been published (or even been rewritten) as part of the series
    • the series has been continued with new works (only in the translated language)

I know that I’ve been listing a lot of edge cases above, and that multiple, almost identical series look redundant, but in that case we have recorded the fact that a specific series has not been altered in a certain translation (besides the translated titles themselves, of course).

Sometimes the only thing we know is that a certain series has been translated into language X, but we don’t know if all of the works in the series have been translated or how they are titled. In that case an empty series could be used to document the existence of the translation. I acknowledge that this sounds very geeky, but I won’t deny that I might do that for certain series which I love :innocent:

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kellnerd made much better points than I could, but for what it’s worth, I also believe we should have separate series per language.

I do understand as stated above that that means potentially a lot of similar series, but I don’t think that will be more unwieldy than all the languages cramped into a single Series entity, on the contrary.

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