# New relationships: "instrument is made by" and similar
**URL:** https://community.metabrainz.org/t/new-relationships-instrument-is-made-by-and-similar/815674
**Category:** MusicBrainz
**Tags:** release, recording, instruments, instrument-makers, instrument-making, musicbrainz, style, relationships
**Created:** [September 20, 2026, 5:17am UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/new-relationships-instrument-is-made-by-and-similar/815674 "2026-09-20T05:17:02Z")
**Posts on this page:** 15
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Libra](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/Libra)
#### Post date: [September 20, 2026, 5:17am UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/new-relationships-instrument-is-made-by-and-similar/815674/1 "2026-09-20T05:17:02Z")
While adding [this](https://musicbrainz.org/release/9617722e-5e43-4141-8e76-403a6a02d26e) release I suddenly found, there is no any relationship to show that idea:
I still added this artist but got the default warning, that artist without any relationships will be deleted. So I added it with “miscellaneous support relationship”:
But it would be nice to have relationships to show this info built-in in MB DB in a structured way. Instrument making is an important concept and theme in musical world.
So I propose we need to have a bunch of new relationships related to that:
| type | name | inverted name | description |
| --- | --- | --- | --- |
| artist-artist | made an instrument[instrument\_name] for artist [x] | has/had an instrument[instrument\_name] made by artist [y] specially for artist [x] | used to show owning of instrument that is made by some artist for other artist |
| artist-artist | artist [x] has/had an instrument(s) made by artist [y] | instrument(s) made by artist [y] is owned by artist [x] | used to show owning of instrument that is made by some artist, but is not specially for that artist |
| artist-release, artist-recording | provided an instrument(s) for release/recording | release [x] used instruments provided by artist [y] | used to show instruments were provided by some artist for making a recording/release (note: ‘provided’ means direct instrument maker’s decision) |
| artist-release, artist-recording | instruments of artist [x] were used for performing of release/recording [y] | instruments of artist [x] were used for performing of release/recording [y] | used to show instruments of some artist were used for making a recording/release, but doesn’t mean the instrument maker has made decision about that |
Any additional thoughts/ideas?
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### Author:  [@victimless-grime](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/victimless-grime)
#### Post date: [September 20, 2026, 7:31am UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/new-relationships-instrument-is-made-by-and-similar/815674/2 "2026-09-20T07:31:48Z")
Hi Libra. Not sure how quickly it’ll get done either way, the devs and admins around here are pretty damn swamped most of the time, but I’d recommend putting in a feature request over on [tickets.metabrainz.org](http://tickets.metabrainz.org).
It’s an awesome idea. And hell, it could be something super easy to implement and so get done quickly. Idk, not my wheelhouse.
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### Author:  [@victimless-grime](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/victimless-grime)
#### Post date: [September 20, 2026, 7:34am UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/new-relationships-instrument-is-made-by-and-similar/815674/3 "2026-09-20T07:34:16Z")
You seem like you may even have a decent grasp on how the database functions yourself. You could always put in a pull request over at the github repo.
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### Author:  [@Beckfield](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/Beckfield)
#### Post date: [September 20, 2026, 3:31pm UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/new-relationships-instrument-is-made-by-and-similar/815674/4 "2026-09-20T15:31:17Z")
I agree, this would be a good idea. It’s fairly common that releases of organ music will specify the maker/history of the organ used in the performance.
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### Author:  [@jesus2099](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/jesus2099)
#### Post date: [September 20, 2026, 9:06pm UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/new-relationships-instrument-is-made-by-and-similar/815674/5 "2026-09-20T21:06:34Z")
I think _manufactured_ sounds better, but I’m not English.
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### Author:  [@Beckfield](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/Beckfield)
#### Post date: [September 20, 2026, 9:20pm UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/new-relationships-instrument-is-made-by-and-similar/815674/6 "2026-09-20T21:20:25Z")
“Manufacture” generally applies to a process of turning out multiple units, like an assembly line or machine output. In many cases, especially with things like pipe organs, it may be a one-off construction.
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### Author:  [@reosarevok](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/reosarevok)
#### Post date: [September 21, 2026, 8:42am UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/new-relationships-instrument-is-made-by-and-similar/815674/7 "2026-09-21T08:42:00Z")
I guess there are two kinds of things here: one is specific _instruments_ (organs, or valuable old violins, etc.) where ideally it would make sense to track the instrument itself (but that is quite a lot of work to implement since we do not have at all a layer for individual instruments). And the other is more general “brand or maker made instrument X used here”, which would be technically a lot easier to implement (although it could feel a bit like data duplication because of how we do relationships).
I’m a bit skeptical about an “artist/label(for company) made an instrument [instrument\_name] for artist” because that actually doesn’t cover a lot of the most significant instrument making relationships (Stradivari’s violins weren’t _made_ for any of the people using them now, and yet people would want to store that information).
I think the easiest starting point for something like this would be the release/recording version. “X made instrument Y used in release/recording Z” where the specific instrument name/identification/code (for one-off instruments) can be set as the instrument alias. [I tested it on test.musicbrainz.org](https://test.musicbrainz.org/relationship/fbcc7eaf-1349-4dc1-8aee-a00e7bd280a8):
Obviously the best way to do this would be to have a three or four point relationship so all the info “Janine Jansen played a violin (the Barrère made by Antonio Stradivari) in 2010” would be one relationship. But that’s even harder than tracking individual instruments, so… 🫣
Would this seem useful as it is? If it feels weird to have the instrument name / title as the alias it could potentially also be made a separate attribute like the “task” one shown in the first post here, I guess.
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### Author:  [@calculator.ftvb](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/calculator.ftvb)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2026, 10:43pm UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/new-relationships-instrument-is-made-by-and-similar/815674/8 "2026-09-22T22:43:52Z")
This also makes me think of releases where an instrument gets the _top_ billing, ahead of any artist. [Wanamaker Organ Centennial Concert CD — Friends of the Wanamaker Organ](https://www.store.wanamakerorgan.com/cds/wanamaker-organ-centennial-concert)
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### Author:  [@VBZPPlNQyJ](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/VBZPPlNQyJ)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2026, 12:33am UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/new-relationships-instrument-is-made-by-and-similar/815674/9 "2026-09-23T00:33:10Z")
Organs are somewhat unique in that a place entity captures a lot of the relevant details.
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### Author:  [@Griomo](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/Griomo)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2026, 7:48am UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/new-relationships-instrument-is-made-by-and-similar/815674/10 "2026-09-23T07:48:51Z")
A couple of times I have stumbled upon MB recordings having an organ set as “recorded at [place]”, but of course there are other instruments mobile enough (if not nominally):
> **[Siena Piano](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siena_Piano)**
>
> The Siena Piano, also called the Immortal Piano and the Harp of King David, is a piano constructed at the beginning of the 19th century that became famous in the 1950s for its remarkable sound and its unusual history. Its timbre is similar to both a piano and a harpsichord. Legend has it that it was partially built with wood from the pillars of the Temple of Solomon, because of its excellent sound and it being the spiritual descendant of the Harp of David. Most critics say it is best In 1799, S...
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### Author:  [@krefson1](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/krefson1)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2026, 9:57am UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/new-relationships-instrument-is-made-by-and-similar/815674/11 "2026-09-26T09:57:19Z")
> [@VBZPPlNQyJ](#):
>
> Organs are somewhat unique in that a place entity captures a lot of the relevant details
Mostly, but there are exceptions (sorry, couldn’t resist). The Martinkerk at Gronigen
> **[Martinikerk](https://musicbrainz.org/place/904f9ba1-e6a4-455d-bb0c-c08c05dea259)**
>
> Religious building in Groningen
has two organs, by Schnichter from 1450 and Le Picard in 1744. Remarkably both are played in the superb album
> **[A New Angle](https://musicbrainz.org/release/299d39ad-7df1-4bf1-ac94-437c22923a00)**
>
> Official release by Johann Sebastian Bach;Leo van Doeselaar & Erwin Wiersinga, 2019
>
> 13 total tracks (Hybrid SACD)
And Freiburg has four!
> **[The Four Great Toccatas and Fugues: The Four Antiphonal Organs of the Cathedral of Freiburg Played Simultaneously by E. Power Biggs](https://musicbrainz.org/release/612da419-0e92-4874-94d0-fda60fbe3c74)**
>
> Official release by Johann Sebastian Bach; E. Power Biggs, 2003
>
> 16 total tracks (SACD (2 channels), SACD (multichannel))
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### Author:  [@VBZPPlNQyJ](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/VBZPPlNQyJ)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2026, 10:01am UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/new-relationships-instrument-is-made-by-and-similar/815674/12 "2026-09-26T10:01:51Z")
Another class of exception would be organs that regularly change location.
> **[Opus 8 - International Touring Organ | marshallandogletree](https://www.marshallandogletree.com/opus8)**
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### Author:  [@krefson1](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/krefson1)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2026, 10:02am UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/new-relationships-instrument-is-made-by-and-similar/815674/13 "2026-09-26T10:02:13Z")
… and a more serious contribution to the discussion of this thread.
Indeed, currently, it seems that even though there is a relationship for an instrument _technician_ as an artist we have no way of properly crediting an instrument _maker_, be it Schnichter, Stradivari, Bluthner or Fender. I would certainly support adding instrument maker as an artist category.
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### Author:  [@VBZPPlNQyJ](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/VBZPPlNQyJ)
#### Post date: [September 26, 2026, 10:06am UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/new-relationships-instrument-is-made-by-and-similar/815674/14 "2026-09-26T10:06:50Z")
And crediting just the instrument maker should be much simpler than some of the other proposals in this thread.
What do people think about crediting labels as instrument maker, to track the brand of an instrument? E.g. piano made by Bösendorfer or guitar made by Fender.
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### Author:  [@dseomn](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/dseomn)
#### Post date: [October 9, 2026, 5:37am UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/new-relationships-instrument-is-made-by-and-similar/815674/15 "2026-10-09T05:37:54Z")
Not sure how much it matters, but there are also instruments made out of other instruments, like the [tromboon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._D._Q._Bach#Tromboon). Would the relationship capture only the person/company who assembled the final tromboon, or also the companies that made the original trombone and bassoon?