# If an image is back of the tray
**URL:** https://community.metabrainz.org/t/if-an-image-is-back-of-the-tray/625161
**Category:** Style
**Tags:** cover-art
**Created:** [February 23, 2023, 6:54pm UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/if-an-image-is-back-of-the-tray/625161 "2023-02-23T18:54:07Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@dpr](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/dpr)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2023, 8:00pm UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/if-an-image-is-back-of-the-tray/625161/21 "2023-02-23T20:00:55Z")
> [@aerozol](#):
>
> Absolutely, but let’s remember that they are community-led guidelines - if you have improvements in mind for this case, please draft them, and we can make them happen 👍
Where / how do I do that?
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### Author:  [@aerozol](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/aerozol)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2023, 8:04pm UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/if-an-image-is-back-of-the-tray/625161/22 "2023-02-23T20:04:32Z")
Right here or in a new forum thread!
Link to the guideline/doc pages that need to be changed (or name the new pages that need to be created), and then draft your suggestions.
If there’s a consensus (this can sometimes be the tricky part, hang in there), I will harangue our poor style lead, @reosarevok, to update the guidelines proper with your suggestions.
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### Author:  [@IvanDobsky](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/IvanDobsky)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2023, 8:04pm UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/if-an-image-is-back-of-the-tray/625161/23 "2023-02-23T20:04:48Z")
I should also mention there are hundreds of threads in this forum of similar conversations. This is how these artwork guidelines have been thrashed out and defined over the years.
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### Author:  [@dpr](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/dpr)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2023, 8:09pm UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/if-an-image-is-back-of-the-tray/625161/24 "2023-02-23T20:09:20Z")
> [@Cover Art Types - More Details?](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/cover-art-types-more-details/618456/18):
>
> clear proof indeed! grinning
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### Author:  [@IvanDobsky](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/IvanDobsky)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2023, 8:12pm UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/if-an-image-is-back-of-the-tray/625161/25 "2023-02-23T20:12:38Z")
Yep… and I am still writing lots of toot… 😂
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### Author:  [@jerry1970](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/jerry1970)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2023, 8:24pm UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/if-an-image-is-back-of-the-tray/625161/26 "2023-02-23T20:24:13Z")
I know now, but could the UI show a line like “only one front and one back per entry!” or something? Or warning when a second Front is used? Or change Front and Back to Front-of-Release and Back-of-Release? Just some suggestions.
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### Author:  [@dpr](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/dpr)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2023, 8:38pm UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/if-an-image-is-back-of-the-tray/625161/27 "2023-02-23T20:38:56Z")
> [@aerozol](#):
>
> Link to the guideline/doc pages that need to be changed (or name the new pages that need to be created), and then draft your suggestions
It appears to me that the guidelines try to be flexible enough to describe an ‘abstract’ box/container/case that may contain other box/container/cases, which makes them ambiguous and slightly imprecise when describing images from standard item such as a jewel case, a booklet, etc. For example, ‘spine’ could be the edge of the jewel case or it could be the spine of a box set.
I’d rather see a way of very clearly and precisely describing a jewel case without ambiguity.
‘Front’ is the Front of the jewel case, “Front, Booklet” works when the Front image and the first page of the booklet are the same, but there’s no way to describe the first page in the booklet when they are not. Back is the back of the jewel case, I’m not sure how the last page in the booklet is described.
I also favour single types in general for simplicity. I’m not sure what I feel about things like stickers and Obi, There’s also a difference of opinion about the reason for having cover art in MB. Is it to help identify releases or as a first rate repository of artwork…
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### Author:  [@IvanDobsky](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/IvanDobsky)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2023, 8:56pm UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/if-an-image-is-back-of-the-tray/625161/28 "2023-02-23T20:56:36Z")
> [@dpr](#):
>
> I also favour single types in general for simplicity. I’m not sure what I feel about things like stickers and Obi,
In your second sentence you show one of many places where you need two types. “front + sticker” will be different to a “front” without a sticker.
Last page of a booklet is just “page 24” (or how ever many pages you have).
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### Author:  [@dpr](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/dpr)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2023, 8:56pm UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/if-an-image-is-back-of-the-tray/625161/29 "2023-02-23T20:56:50Z")
> [@IvanDobsky](#):
>
> Yep… and I am still writing lots of toot… 😂
Was really just trying to link to the thread…
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### Author:  [@dpr](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/dpr)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2023, 9:00pm UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/if-an-image-is-back-of-the-tray/625161/30 "2023-02-23T21:00:21Z")
> [@IvanDobsky](#):
>
> In your second sentence you show one of many places where you need two types. “front + sticker” will be different to a “front” without a sticker.
Well, not sure. Front + Sticker could be combined to be “Front-Sticker”. Much simpler IMHO
> [@IvanDobsky](#):
>
> Last page of a booklet is just “page 24” (or how ever many pages you have)
Works as long as you have all the pages or know how many you should have. @jesus2099 was arguing for 24 of 24 elsewhere.
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### Author:  [@IvanDobsky](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/IvanDobsky)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2023, 9:04pm UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/if-an-image-is-back-of-the-tray/625161/31 "2023-02-23T21:04:32Z")
> [@dpr](#):
>
> Well, not sure. Front + Sticker could be combined to be “Front-Sticker”. Much simpler IMHO
Not really. Picard has an option to select “front” and it would be able to say “yeah, give me any fronts you have - including the one with a sticker”.
Otherwise if the only image available is “front-sticker” then you would not have a “front” to show.
There are other cases (which I can’t think of right now) where multi-types are really very handy.
(I think I worded that rubbish…)
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### Author:  [@IvanDobsky](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/IvanDobsky)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2023, 9:05pm UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/if-an-image-is-back-of-the-tray/625161/32 "2023-02-23T21:05:35Z")
> [@dpr](#):
>
> Works as long as you have all the pages or know how many you should have
Adding page numbers has been asked for and is being worked on. Some large booklets I have only uploaded a first and last page and the page with the credits on it.
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### Author:  [@dpr](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/dpr)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2023, 9:06pm UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/if-an-image-is-back-of-the-tray/625161/33 "2023-02-23T21:06:09Z")
> [@IvanDobsky](#):
>
> Otherwise if the only image available is “front-sticker” then you would not have a “front” to show.
Maybe it’s the image should be just front… it’s the dsotm sticker issue
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### Author:  [@IvanDobsky](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/IvanDobsky)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2023, 9:07pm UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/if-an-image-is-back-of-the-tray/625161/34 "2023-02-23T21:07:51Z")
> [@dpr](#):
>
> dsotm
If you are using dstom as an example, you also have covers with obi’s there too. MB tends to put the stickered version up first as it is how you see it on the shelf. But some people don’t like sticker and want to only select a “front” image. (See also Obis, versions in boxes, etc… bit of everything with DSotM)
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### Author:  [@dpr](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/dpr)
#### Post date: [February 23, 2023, 9:20pm UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/if-an-image-is-back-of-the-tray/625161/35 "2023-02-23T21:20:33Z")
> [@IvanDobsky](#):
>
> But some people don’t like sticker and want to only select a “front” image. (See also Obis, versions in boxes, etc… bit of everything with DSotM)
I can see how the multiple types are helpful in this example.
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### Author:  [@aerozol](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/aerozol)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2023, 1:41am UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/if-an-image-is-back-of-the-tray/625161/36 "2023-02-24T01:41:06Z")
All good points but fyi if you want the guidelines to be updated you need to be specify _exactly_ what you propose to change, and to what. There’s no employee whose job it is to pick apart community discussion/feedback and turn it into guidelines (maybe someday?)
I could be tempted to help but I’m already meant to be doing a soundtrack guideline ahhh 😬
So I’m giving you a push instead 😛
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### Author:  [@jerry1970](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/jerry1970)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2023, 8:53am UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/if-an-image-is-back-of-the-tray/625161/37 "2023-02-24T08:53:40Z")
> [@dpr](#):
>
> > [@IvanDobsky](#):
> >
> > In your second sentence you show one of many places where you need two types. “front + sticker” will be different to a “front” without a sticker.
>
> Well, not sure. Front + Sticker could be combined to be “Front-Sticker”. Much simpler IMHO
Both make sense, which means the system is not water-tight. And that is probably not necessary.
As a software developer myself I know the question is: what is the goal, what are we trying to achieve?
I can see the need for a single Front image, as that would be used for displaying in a list or at the top right of an entry. So there has to be only one image that has Front _and_ no other tags. Back, Spine, Top, and Bottom can also only be used once (for the whole release as it is on the shelves) - I can see the use of that for being able to recognise what release you have in your hand.
What is the “problem” with the outside of the booklet being tagged Front/Back/Booklet? I mean: is a query going wrong somewhere? Do we collect more items than we want in a search? Or the outside of a tray inlay being Back/Spine/Tray. In a box, every jewel case has a spine and a front and a back, but those tags cannot be used.
To me this feels like there should be tags for the whole release and for everything else that is inside. Like a ReleaseBack that can only be used once, but Back that can be used for the booklet, tray, poster, thank-you card, etc.
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### Author:  [@jerry1970](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/jerry1970)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2023, 10:58am UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/if-an-image-is-back-of-the-tray/625161/38 "2023-02-24T10:58:07Z")
By the way, what is the tray inlay card with spines to be tagged with if there is a slipcase or O-card? Spine, alright, but the slipcase gets the Back tag as that is the back you see when the album is on the shelf. It’s still the inlay that is in the tray, just the backside of it.
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### Author:  [@IvanDobsky](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/IvanDobsky)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2023, 12:43pm UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/if-an-image-is-back-of-the-tray/625161/39 "2023-02-24T12:43:24Z")
The guidelines don’t really cover O-Cards or slipcases. (Or boxes) So the convention has been to have multiple front\back in those cases.
You’d have front+other for the front of the o-card, and back+other for the back of the O-Card.
On the basis that some people will discard the O-Cards the Jewelcase then gets labelled as normal.
So there are two “fronts” and two “backs” in that example.
> **[Mind Bomb](https://musicbrainz.org/release/a3c83b50-73bd-3e5d-a022-1f5531ee04e7/cover-art)**
>
> Official release by The The, 2002
>
> 8 total tracks (CD)
Many things are missing from artwork types. Like with a gatefold CD or LP there is no real name for the bit in the centre when you open it up.
The types are currently very much centred around a jewelcase.
> [@jerry1970](#):
>
> What is the “problem” with the outside of the booklet being tagged Front/Back/Booklet? I mean: is a query going wrong somewhere? Do we collect more items than we want in a search? Or the outside of a tray inlay being Back/Spine/Tray.
Again, long standing convention has refined the naming. The last page of a booklet has never been a back as it doesn’t make sense in how this is used. The tray is always the bit you see inside the tray.
> [@jerry1970](#):
>
> In a box, every jewel case has a spine and a front and a back, but those tags cannot be used.
This is like the O-Card example, and variations do occur. With multiple CDs inside a box you will often see multiple fronts and backs for those separate items.
[https://musicbrainz.org/release/e2d8bb4d-2fad-4350-ac75-708f1495d6ae/cover-art](https://musicbrainz.org/release/e2d8bb4d-2fad-4350-ac75-708f1495d6ae/cover-art) (Warning - this link is to 344 bits of artwork in a large box… may take a while to load 😂 )
This boxset also shows the trouble with gatefolds not having a name for the “inner bit” and get called “other” instead.
What would also be useful is a way of naming 14 different CDs with 14 different booklets, 16 different CDs, and the bonus booklet in the box. 🙃
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### Author:  [@dpr](https://community.metabrainz.org/u/dpr)
#### Post date: [February 24, 2023, 4:32pm UTC](https://community.metabrainz.org/t/if-an-image-is-back-of-the-tray/625161/40 "2023-02-24T16:32:25Z")
> [@IvanDobsky](#):
>
> back+booklet” is never going to be a legit thing. “Back” has a very specific meaning
See this release where the booklet is a completely separate thing to the front cover of the jewel case and the back of it
[https://musicbrainz.org/release/0c34f970-ec70-4514-9952-b7c6aea0fd62/cover-art](https://musicbrainz.org/release/0c34f970-ec70-4514-9952-b7c6aea0fd62/cover-art)
The front and back of the booklet is described as “Front,Booklet” and Booklet,Back”. Either this is legitimate or there needs to be another way of tagging a booklet.
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