Adding covers uploaded to youtube as a standalone recordings or singles

MusicBrainz Style
, ,
27

To provide what I believe to be a very clear example of how these are not releases contextually: the music video for the song VIOLET by another member of hololive, Ninomae Ina’nis, was released several hours ago.

It is not available to stream, download, etc in any other capacity currently, but it is a recording of the song and was uploaded to YouTube. By all standards arguing for music videos as releases, this should be the first release of this song, and a single entry should be made for the artist. But by the standard of observing how this artist and those in her company operate and contextualizing this upload, we know that the song is getting an actual release that is not this standalone recording. hololive talents make releases of their songs in a certain, recognizable fashion. This pattern appears as though it will be followed for this release, as we can see with the provided streamlink page from the video description for future streaming/downloading in music contexts.

This pattern is not followed by the music videos in question. There is clearly involvement at a production level from the same people who would be involved for an on-label release. There is a clear difference from the pattern of what is considered a release for these artists that implies there was a decision to not consider these uploads as releases by any previously set standard.

To address “release”-y-ness:

There not only would not be a point, but it would also end up holding redundant and possibly confusing information, since recordings can appear on multiple releases. But we can see that a standalone recording can hold all relationships these releases are being used for with the exception of mirroring the video thumbnail.

Here is a standalone music video recording for the YouTube upload linked above that I have created. Behold, as it has all information related, including the date it was made available on YouTube, despite using the recording entity. I don’t think there is an argument that the release entity should be used purely so the thumbnail can be saved to the Cover Art Archive, so if there is a continued push for using the release entity I would hope to hear a justification beyond having no place for information.

The recording I created handles this. It is a music video that exists. It was uploaded and made available to YouTube starting on a certain date. It is attributed to this artist, and several others took part in it’s production. It is not excluded from the database because you cannot see it on the main page of the artist.

5 Likes
28

I still think that the main difference between the recording you have created and the covers I’ve entered in the database is how they’re handled.
You yourself have said that VIOLET is getting a different kind of release and this video works as a promo music video for that. But it’s not the case for those covers
Why would music that’s only meant to be listened through YouTube and is only released in this platform not a release?

I understand that these is different than the releases that they get through the label, but I fail to see why if an artist releases music in two parallel ways one couldn’t be considered a release.

I really think its a thing of a case by case basis and your example works like that too. I can’t stress enough that my point isn’t every music video uploaded ever to YouTube is automatically a new single.

In the case of Suisei’s channel for example she even featured those same covers on her channel’s main page. I still think they have more weight than just some recording.
Not trying to discuss artist intent because unless the artist themselves comes down to the forum we could argue back and forth all day and never reach and agreement.

But what I see and what I think is still the same because this is music only streamed through YouTube, yes, in a video format. The same way stuff can only be released through video on a DVD or tape.

For the record, I don’t think that any video uploaded by the same artists to Youtube count as a release.

Still using the same example of a VTuber, a single clip from a singing stream would be more appropiate to the standalone recording, akin to something recorded over the radio on a given date.

The videos in question are not like that. The ones I thought were relevant enough to be added were the only instance in which a song was released, in the artist official channel. These are not promoting any other release or a recording (so far).

This addresses my point quite clearly too.

Would this be better and solve the whole issue? Yes, absolutely! I’d love to have the option to add them as video single like @Skeebadoo mentioned earlier, but currently we can’t. The closest entity we have, is that of a “Single” or “Other” for a release.

2 Likes
29

After careful consideration, I’m moving the releases I added from the singles group to Other as it seems the most reasonable thing to do. Added edit notes linking to this thread too.
I really think this is the best approach for these cases.

https://musicbrainz.org/artist/8eeb59f4-0071-4261-b1f8-91d8294622d2/open_edits

https://musicbrainz.org/artist/d9eee634-11fa-41f8-bfd9-4040a14a7fa5/open_edits

EDIT: I’ll probably add a few more of these in the future and I plan on use these as a guideline.

2 Likes
30

FWIW, I’ve been adding thousands of music videos and a couple YT covers too and would rather see an improved discography view than stuffing it into “other”

BTW, also created collections for “video as release”:

6 Likes
31

Seems more sensible than stuffing singles. Video in general is missing a good home on the Release page. A DVD Concert release also needs a better home

2 Likes
32

I feel the same! But I thought this was the best approach we have with the current layout of the artist page. TBH my current solution isn’t what I’d like at all either but I don’t know if keeping them on singles is the correct choice either…

Mostly because of this, IMHO video needs a proper place in the release page for an artist so it can get properly populated.

On another note, I have never used collections, is it possible to contribute to it whenever I add a new video as release?

2 Likes
33

What an incredible page/link!!

Re. making a ‘video’ category, wouldn’t you want to put a video single in the same group as a audio single if both have come out? So it would still end up in ‘single’ in some cases?

Is a potential answer more filters on the artist page - check a box to hide any rgs with only video releases in them. I wonder if that design overhaul is still coming after everything has been shifted to react?

1 Like
34

Your timing is quite good with this question – this has been on my mind for quite some time and between the React move taking much longer than hoped and the pandemic, we haven’t made much progress on this front.

However, there are some gears turning in the background that may very well finally move this forward, but its too early to talk about that just yet.

Stay tuned!

6 Likes
35

Just throwing my two cents in…

I believe most of the videos in question (Hololive covers) should be on a release of some sort, since they’ve been released on a streaming platform, namely YouTube. Whether a Single, Other, or “video single”, I’m not 100% decided on.

For example, in the case of Ina’s “VIOLET” above, I might propose adding the video to a new release under the release group for the single, tagged as “Promotional”, since it’s promoting the release of the single.

Also, I’d like to note that most but not all quote-unquote “Official” Hololive releases have a true video release, just look at Gawr Gura’s REFLECT released a couple months earlier. It’s got a streamlink and everything, but the “Video” on YouTube is just a still of the release cover. I might still add a “Promotional” single if the video was released earlier, but I’d say just use the audio recording on the release in this case and don’t make a video recording just for a still-image “Video”.

In the case of the covers, I think adding a URL begin date is cool, but it’s a feature that almost nobody (including me, until a couple days ago) knows about, (though possibly not for long)

And anyways, think of the taggers, how will we they get release dates tagged without a release to pull it from? Release dates are very important to us them! :wink: (jk, jk…)

To my eye, the Hololive gals, (and maybe Holostars too) have, in general, two parallel “standards for how they do releases”, one being through music streaming services like Apple Music, Spotify, etc, and one of them being music videos on YouTube. In every case I’ve seen for this group, most (if not all) of their musical content is said videos. Just look at Airani Iofifteen of Hololive ID, she’s posted several cover songs on YouTube, and I don’t think they’ve been released any other way.

As a total sidenote, I personally would likely add these as events, possibly even standalone video recordings for the whole stream, related back to the event (at least if they’re archived, but this is getting a bit off-topic)

…okay, that was probably more like 32 cents, lol
it’s nice to see some Hololive fans in the forums, btw~ :relaxed:
Yagoo is best girl~

2 Likes
36

That would be ideal! The only thing I’d add is to relate the recording to the works being covered. But medley is a bit off imo, how should we handle that?

Ngl tried to resist jumping into this train for a loooong time but my resolve ended up failing a few months ago! I’m glad it did, tho

1 Like
37

You’d just add those works as “live, (cover, and/or partial, if needed)”, just like below, (not hololive, but I don’t know if there’s any hololive examples yet)

EDIT: I just added Gura’s 2 million subscriber stream, event and recording

1 Like
38

Llamaman42 here, now UltimateRiff. Finally got the username change I’ve been wanting for a while

Just wanted to add, Hololive themselves have posted covers on their channels, namely Hololive JP’s “Ochame Kinou” (recording on MB) and Hololive EN’s “Country Roads” (recording on MB). I don’t know if it gets more official than that

I edited before I decided to post about the official covers, hope this helps!

2 Likes
39

Didn’t know about these covers posted on the Hololive official channels, I’m glad you added them!

Probably can’t top that one lol
Do you think these examples also warrant a release or would you just leave them as video recordings?
As always, I’m partial to think of them as releases

I like the way you did it, really! I have never added events before so I didn’t know we had a specific field for Setlist. That looks great for all the live singing streams.

1 Like
40

Thank you!~

I’d personally like to add those as releases too, pending the current discussion.

I usually add videos as standalone recordings before adding a release anyways… That way it doesn’t require voting time to change a recording created through a new release into a video.

Also, total sidenote, I realize I was wrong, and I’ve seen the error of my ways… Mumei is actually best girl~ :owl:

41

Hmm dunno… Kronii exists and all, but that’s just me.

That seems to be more efficient, I’ll take note. But of all my edits the video ones are usually the ones that get approved the fastest.

1 Like
42

I spent some time trying to add music videos and thinking about this, my proposal:

A music video is a video, with a relationship with a (music) recording. We need a VideoBrainz (or MovieBrainz) in order to fully and accurate enter the data.
similarly: see audiobooks, discussion, example

Arguments

Music videos are commonly listed under “movie” or “video” in homepages:
dadaray, deco*27, The Binary

A music video is not a music release.
あたらよ’s 10月無口な君を忘れる MV “released” (投稿) in Nov 2020, gained over million views, before the digital single is released (リリース) on Mar 2021. Wikipedia.

Missing fields for artist credits
the biggest reason I want to enter music videos into MusicBrainz, is to record the artist credits associated with music videos. I can’t do that fully in MusicBrainz. I cannot accurately represent:
illustrator, animator, photography, typography, video production producers / managers / director
set design, lighting, camera crew

Missing “traditional” data

  • no label or barcode (although self-published releases aren’t uncommon)
  • is a sole recording entry, no tracklist
  • recording has no ISRC

When a music video is “released”, a video is released, not music, you have to rip the music from it.

What I want

We need MovieBrainz (or VideoBrainz).
MovieBrainz recording has relationship “Music Video of” with a MusicBrainz recording entry.
MovieBrainz recording has additional recording-artist relationships not available for MusicBrainz entries (illustrator, typography, set design, camera crew etc)
MovieBrainz “release” (?) schema can be better designed to suit for movies (I don’t know anything at all about this).

To show all music videos on a MusicBrainz artist page, the process goes:
MusicBrainz artist
find corresponding MovieBrainz artist
find all MovieBrainz release group
under category Music Video

The complete schema probably should be a separate discussion.

also unfortunately, most developers are still working on the new react UI, so we won’t see progress on this even if this is accepted…

stopgap

IF we’re making MovieBrainz, the problem is then: for now, do we accept “Other” release group for music videos, to be removed when MovieBrainz is a thing.

The only information a music video release group adds from being a standalone recording is:
thumbnail
release date
artist credit

release date can be moved to url begin date, artist credit usually can be represented by recording’s vocal artist, but then the formatting for the artist credit will be lost (is this important?).

There are way too many “Other” type release group entries, search result, creating release groups will not help importing into MovieBrainz if that becomes a thing.
We will search for recording entries with “music video of” relationship anyway.

So, do we want to pre-archive thumbnails onto CAA? this is not a misuse of CAA, boxarts are already on CAA, and hypothetically movie posters will also be on CAA if MovieBrainz exists.

3 Likes
43

Support for music videos has obviously to be improved, but it should be done within MusicBrainz, for now at least.

It is more than a music release, but part of it is a music release. That can be compared with releases consisting of a book and a CD for example; These currently have to be entered into both MusicBrainz and BookBrainz, and then linked together, all of that manually. This is one of the key points that must be drastically improved. That would be the same issues with a new *Brainz dedicated to videos.

It is not just about the lack of developers: It would also require additional server resources, and to form a new community around it. It is not just about new React UI either: There are a lot of other important work in progress too: new UI design, updated/improved search, UI completion w.r.t. the previous schema changes. About the lack of developers and design overhaul, here are the good news teased above:

4 Likes
44

Recordings do have an artist credit, so I’m not sure why you see that bit as a problem :slight_smile:

1 Like
45

Now that I think about it for a bit more, we can just add a secondary release group type “Music Video”. This seems like a easy and quick fix to me.

side note, I’ve found music video being sold physically on DVD (& BD):
Original MV, DVD sale announcement, Amazon

I still feel that there is a difference between an MV release from other forms of music releases, it’s a release of a piece of music, but not quite a “music release”
usually “music release” have kindda a standard release process, copyright (ISRC), distribution (label) etc, and the MB schema reflects that, but music video doesn’t follow any of those (or does it?)
Even so I don’t see anything incorrect with creating a “Other + Music Video” release group.

I was bit excited with my idea of MovieBrainz :stuck_out_tongue: I still think it’s a good idea though, mostly to attribute artist credits.
But alternatively, we can just start adding these new artist-recordings relationship types onto MusicBrainz.

also, a MovieBrainz will have to compete with IMDB (for editors, attention).
And I’ve realized a MovieBrainz that accepts music videos has to accept all kinds of other videos too, and on the internet that means adult videos, which isn’t somehow bad in itself but there’ll probably be drama.
Building on top of MB (adding relationship types) instead of creating some MovieBrainz bypass these issues, but I still think a MovieBrainz is a better representation (e.g. don’t have to manually enforce “animator relation can only be used on music videos, not other recordings”).

Ye I somehow missed that function, and thought that you can’t do join phrases on recordings :stuck_out_tongue: thanks for the correction

Ye sorry if I sounded like I was saying you guys are slow :stuck_out_tongue: , the main thing I wanted to point out is creating such as “MovieBrainz” will have to take a significant time to develop, deploy, and seed with data. And I also want to start adding in music video data ASAP, so it might be more reasonable to add onto MB itself instead of creating MovieBrainz, or at least have some “stopgap”, a standard way of entering music videos in the meanwhile.

1 Like
46

I don’t think anybody disagrees with the idea, go for it :stuck_out_tongue:

It would take a ticket and 10 years to add a new secondary release group type so a new DB is going to take a while if you’re asking someone else to do it :joy::hourglass_flowing_sand:

Ps 'brainz' fantasy list

1 Like